snowmman

two phrases are being used. A "debris field" is different than bills or fragments. Everyone agrees there was debris there. But of what kind? Brian has given extensive interviews over the years, with varying accounts of the bundle positioning. I documented it well here before. There was never a mention of other bills forming a "debris field" I suspect people have misinterpreted phrases here. Who the hell knows. Seems like bullshit. Especially if Tom Kaye was around when people said stuff like this. Bullshit tends to smear off onto others.

"Still all I have ever wanted was for this case to be solved before Ralph dies." Jerry: It's not going to happen. Ralph will die without Cooper being identified. Bank on it. That's reality. No big deal though. Why would Himmelsbach care? His life is bigger than worrying about Cooper.

Bruce said "I'd like to add a clarification to what I remember Al Fazio saying. He had taken out Tosaw's book, I believe, and flipped to the page with the money laid out. He pointed to the blackened one, and the ones that had lost their edges, become shards, had holes, etc. He said, as best as I can recall, "These are the kinds of bills we saw up and down the tide line. Bits and pieces of damaged, discolored bills." I've attached the money photo from the Tosaw book. it's page 95. The Norjak book has a different photo, from the top. There really aren't any fragments in the photo? Oh wait, there's one on the top of a stack. Maybe the edges? But most of the edges are missing??? (edit) I don't see "blackened" bills in this photo. I've posted numerous times about brown bills and the black bill issues. (and them not being visible in the top photos we have from 1980. What black bills are we talking about?? (edit) I'm not going to post bill photos again, but people should remember there are better top shots available from 1980, along with snaps from the color video then (not so good). The FBI may have photos from 1980 they've not shown us.

I know you like Tom. I'm sure Tom likes Tom. I'm sure lots of people like Tom. But I'm serious. If my kid was anything like Tom, I'd gut him myself.

the first is just Nat Geos depiction of the flight path. They transcribed it with the well known 1 minute tic marks. The second is where I got new evidence. I was able to transcribe the information on the yellow post-it notes around/behind Larry's computer monitor. (he's showing the dan cooper web page in the image) There were 3 phone numbers. I reversed them and got the names. Quite surprising. Operatives have been deployed. I'm going to use some good old social engineering, and tell them that Larry gave me their number, and I'm part of the Citizen Scientists, and Larry had some questions. (edit) added another grab, that's pulled back, so you can definitely see Larry at his computer with the postit notes.

(edit) oh I just saw you were talking about the show editors..not me. sorry. I fast scrolled thru the video and looked for everything that had tom. I initially had some extra scenes that didn't include tom, but cut them to get it down to 9 minutes. youtube has a 10 minute limit. I could break the whole video into 5 pieces at higher resolution, editted only to remove commercials, if there is any question that I am misleading anyone. Anyone who saw the full broadcast, can comment on whether I pulled any trickery. (sorry for the low resolution. Youtube can do better, I just didn't want to wait for the upload of a bigger high res file)

I guess there are a lot of interpretations. Mine is that Tom said it very convincingly and so must have believed what he was saying. No one was twisting his arm. And why the heck did he consent to getting filmed with his telescope or whatever that outdoor gizmo his. I mean he talks about science being simple and everyone can understand it. If my kids watched Tom, I'd have to tell them "This is how bullshit talks. Don't be like that."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwlCiCXxeUk low resolution because I wanted to upload it quick, but I chopped it down to 9 minutes, focusing on Tom stating his theory. People saying it's Nat Geo, are wrong. It's Tom stating the theory. For instance look at 6:31 to 7:10 He says "We believe it's possible" at 6:53, and then states the propeller theory. I don't know if that's the royal "we, or he's speaking for a group of people that he's leading. This could be some sort of terrorist group for all we know.

I don't understand. Does Tom have more secret data not yet revealed? How could the restrictions on his scientific publication (the reason he couldn't tell us) allow him to say "something" on tv. I'm watching Tom with the propeller theory. It'll take a little while for Youtube to convert it, but I'll post the url as "Tom's Theory" Jerry said "The one that did the most constructive work during this time frame was Geof Gray. " What did Geoffrey Gray do? Have we seen his work?

I'm looking at the video again, and Tom is presenting a theory as his own. I'm going to edit the video and post it to youtube, just enough showing Tom stating his theory. Then we can all discuss what Tom says. (edit) Tom definitely says on camera: Lake Merwin or Lewis River, depending on the pull. I've got it down to 11 minutes of video highlighting Tom. Tom says he hit the water.

Jerry, I know you don't claim to be a scientist (although you've made some deductions based on what you've researched)....but what science did you see Tom doing when you were with him? The last time you started talking about Tom's work, Tom shut you up, saying the FBI told him to keep his data under wraps. What data was Tom supposed to keep under wraps? Was it just the erroneous silver identification? From watching the Nat Geo, what's your impression of what science was done?

Here's some Lewis River drowning stories http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lewis+River%22+drowning Evidently it happens. I have to read to see where the bodies go. (edit) Georger will like this story from an oldtimer about life in the area there before the Lake Merwin dam http://www.lewisriver.com/historyone.html

I reported a number of cases of Columbia River drownings, where the body was found well downstream, or not found at all. Including I-5 bridge jumper. I was thinking it'd be interesting to know if anyone has ever drowned in the Lewis River, and where their body was found. Did Tom Kay do any float experiments with the Lewis? It's weird he did float experiments with the Washougal with Jerry. If he's going on tv with a theory promoting the use of science, I would think Tom did experiments on the Lewis. Jerry: did you guide Tom on the Lewis? Or did I? (edit) A "bag stuck on propellor" theory would be testable with science too. I'm really wondering what forensic science the Nat Geo thing was showing. Was there any science other than the measuring tapes????And what was Tom's Gizmo outside. Was that a telescope of some kind? If so, what's the connection between a telescope and Cooper? Is Tom saying Cooper oriented himself with the stars or ??? Why is the science hidden? (edit) I forgot the pollen on the tie. But that was left hanging. No resolution.

Jerry opined: "Do you have any idea how far that would have to of been? For it to of withstood months of high water flow only to be deposited on tinas bar at high tide" My limited experience with beachcombing tells me that all stuff that's deposited and there for a long time, is deposited at the high tide mark. Otherwise it's washed away, eventually. (edit) Of course it can move after the initial deposit, as long as it's not discovered. I wouldn't expect to find anything other than huge trees, at below the high tide mark, except temporarily. (in between high and low tides) ?? I guess we need an expert on the deposit of beach debris. (edit) hey georger: I'm interested in your thoughts on this. seriously.

Jerry said: "Now the black that apears on the money is a common occurance on most articles found in this area especially on the washougal river and its tributaries.It's an algea." okay so we're back where we started. No one knows why the bills are currently black. I don't know how Jerry knows it's algae on the bills, but whatever. I guess I still don't understand why the Washougal is required. What's wrong with Cooper jumping directly into the Columbia? What data prevents that, but allows the Washougal? I don't really expect an answer, because everything about the Cooper thing is just random speculation, so it doesn't really matter what the answer is.

nah. more that the whole thing is kind of boring. It kind of doesn't matter what anyone says etc. Nothing really worth thinking about, or researching.

well, if Fazio is correct, then I wouldn't jump into the Washougal, I'd start wondering if maybe Jo's story has some accuracy. If you think Washougal is possible, then the idea of someone throwing it in the Columbia, at any point, for any reason, is possible. Duane might have not have done the throwing, but if you're blue-skying, saying a natural water transport from the Washoughal is a natural progression of thought, isn't true. You have to say "what are all the ways water may have transported, in some time frame, possibly with or without other assist"

Fazios could be in on the conspiracy. Like Gosset, they have all the books on Cooper. The guy was involved in likely CIA-provided stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Fazio is a farmer. it all makes sense.

Sometimes, when nothing makes sense, you just shrug your shoulders and say "Shit happens". You can look at it and say "There are N possible things Fazio could have said". What you're stressed about, is due to a belief that Fazio would steer himself to some particular subset of that N, based on his knowledge, experiences, and sensory input. But since all of those can be flawed, the better model is to just say "Fazio picked one of the N possible things". i.e. random. Now can you backtrack and understand why Fazio picked that one? Probably not. Probably Fazio doesn't know. So there's no way to be sure. One just can't know. All you can know is "Fazio said this thing" You can chalk it up to drugs, coffee, whatever you feel like. Heck a farmer is around fertilizer chemicals all the time...so you're probably dealing with a contaminated human machine :)

per this book/page: http://books.google.com/books?id=2vGT9KI6QT8C&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=%22silver+nitrate%22+fingerprints&source=bl&ots=RrDRNM88HW&sig=SRzgGJ6jWpMGuDDie6ELBBoFkgk&hl=en&ei=wTtvSu3lDIrQtAPLhKGCAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6 "Silver nitrate fingerprint detection is no longer used as commonly as it once was, due to the expense of the reagent, cumbersome procedure, and background darkening, i.e., poor selective development of the print. Silver nitrate development is not very effective on articles that have been exposed to high humidity or that have become wet, because of the water solubility of salt" See, the book says "Silver nitrate, in the presence of chloride anions of the salt in fingerprint residue, forms silver chloride. This basically is the displacement of the nitrate anion by the chloride anion. Subsequent exposure to light reduces the silver cation to neutral silver, which results in a dark grey (basically black) fingerprint development" So it seems to me, that it made no sense to use silver nitrate on money that had been wet so long. How do I resolve this? Be nice if we had a fingerprint expert that could fill us in on the state of affairs around 1980. (edit) In short, with knowledge of the use of silver nitrate correctly, it's possible that all this talk about silver nitrate, and the metallurgist on tv with Tom Painball Guy, is just a lie? Correct?

Yeah, there's always the stuff out of left field that, by definition, is unpredictable. Like the Nat Geo flick. I wasn't supposed to be able to watch it. I had to hack into the satellite, literally just 2 hrs before the broadcast, to beam it to my computer. I only got the setup working literally minutes before broadcast. I did have some redundancy though. So it's an interesting thing to model: What was the probability that I wouldn't have got the broadcast? 0% 50% 90%? I think the answer is: it doesn't matter. Since Nat Geo will likely rebroadcast the Cooper thing. You can predict that because you can see how often they rebroadcast things like the CIA mind control, or the Green Beret thing.

Exactly. oh, another thing. I know you must have worked on an oil rig before. Could you just have blocked it out of your memory because it was such shit work?

my recollection is we talked a lot about tides. Don't know why georger is saying tides are new. Remember we discussed the drainage from Vancouver Lake that flows in both directions, depending on tides etc. Georger got excited about tides. Don't know why. I thought we covered Columbia hydraulics pretty extensively. Georger?

Remember how many posts and pictures I posted about black bills, brown bills, etc. Remember how many times I asked questions about that, and hypothesized. And then Sluggo just drops some information that the dream team did an analysis and had an answer. Yet no one here deserved a simple little post that directly answered that question. Funny. Any georger wonders why I don't give a fuck about anyone.

sluggo said "The currently accepted theory (borne out by chemical analysis) is that the black discoloration was caused by dusting (all) the bills with silver-nitrate AFTER they were in FBI custody. The more recent photos of the money definitely show a lot of discoloration, including blackening." thanks. If this is true it's good info. I had been pushing and pushing on this black bill thing. I thought maybe there was chemicals on the bills, and that the color changed over time. But with the recent info about the fingerprint chemical stuff, I didn't think of that as a possibility. Be interesting if it's true.