snowmman

ah got it yes. forgot. They say that in those transcripts. But the oscillations comment comes from the TTY log. They mention tapes, but they don't mention the TTY log in that page you forwarded. (edit) at least they don't say "TTY log"... (edit) they do mention, on reading again, that the jump time is from "the recorded communication from the flight". so I guess that is the TTY log. There's no information from the audio tapes that was used for the '72 DZ prediction right? it's just flight path (radar), altitude/air speed (flight recorder) and predicted jump time...then the various canopy drift/free fall estimates, and wind measurements. So there was no reason for them to mention the tapes. Agreed? (edit) unless: they were synchronizing time using between the audio tapes and the radar..maybe that's it.

I've been re-reading the latest "LZ map.jpg" that sluggo added to his site, from Ckret, that has the info about the '72 map. (attached) Interestingly it uses a proportional font. I suspect done on a IBM Selectric Composer. The combined +- symbol seems to vary, probably an double strike character. Would verify that it was typed, even though font is atypical for the era. But the main point: it has this new info describing what the plot was based on, among other stuff: "- Time correlation from the above USAF radar and from the NWA communications network tape recording" Sounds like maybe they had an audio recording of the radio traffic? i.e. they weren't just working from the transcripts like we were? Unless they're talking about a paper tape record of the TTY output. But "tape recording" sounds like audio tape. If this is true, than an audio tape should not have any TTY printing/communication delay? I guess I don't know what this means. It's just interesting because now the idea of some kind of "network tape recording" has been introduced, when the '72 map was created. They say they used altitude and air speed from the flight recorder. I suppose not for adjusting the flight path, but for computing the drift lines. That seems to answer another question I had.

hey low_pull1...I think we reviewed Cooper's language on this now that I'm thinking about it...he just said "back" and "front" right? I know in looking at the transcripts that ?Scott? or someone on the 305 end? apparently introduced the "pack" word...but that may be confusing us..i.e. they introduced their phraseology, but I think ckret told us that Cooper just said "back" and "front"...?? I think? So maybe there's nothing we can glean from this..I think we went over this already..don't exactly remember.

whew, nothing gets said directly round here. The new info Sluggo posted about the '72 LZ map creation gives us info to resolve it's correlation to the '71 map. It also gives us information about creating a new LZ from '71 map, because it includes error information (besides the known 2004 error) The key paragraph is "The north-south span of possible jump positions is a product of the radar position tolerance of +- .5 mile, and the communication tolerance of +-1 minute" So this tells us, with reasonable certainty, that the '71 map probably doesn't have any 1 minute variance built into it, for comparing to the transcripts. That's good. It should be "real time". It also tells us that the reason there's an apparent "too early" drift line...i.e. to account for the perceived error tolerances. But here's another mistake, I think. The 8:11 predicted jump time already had 1 minute taken away for transcript log delay, right? The log reported the oscillations at 8:12. So by including another -1 minute variance, they're double counting the communications lag? And I'm not sure why they would go both ways on the communication lag. The lag between real event and log is such that the real event is always before. It can't be after the communication log, unless there is some skew in the local time printed. Maybe that's it? Maybe they should have used -2 minutes to 0, for the variance due to transcript printing. (edit) I suppose the net effect of what they did, achieved that? weird. In any case, my point D apparent "doesn't make sense" compared to the '71 map, seems to be a product of a number of errors or fuzzy use of variances (it also reinforces that drawing 3 lines was silly, due to the fuzziness of the data, and that zones should have been drawn) But it seems reasonable to just assume the '71 map is correctly marked with real time. I welcome others analysis of these issues around the '71 and '72 map comparisons. (time). I think when we creat a new LZ, we probably don't care about the oscillations in the transcript. We're probably mostly going from the "time to bump" from the 2005 comment from Cooper...So we can almost ignore all this transcript delay wishy-washy prediction. (edit) or not? cause the 2005 comment is in the logs? so we do have to account for transcript delay? The jump point seems to be be around 2015, with the visibility of the "portland suburbs" being the stronger identifier, compared to the bump delay after cooper's 2005 communication (transcripts) We do need to factor in radar tolerance of +-.5 miles in the LZ prediction though? (edit) and I guess we're willing to say Cooper didn't cross the Columbia based on other pilot testimony on the bump. So maybe the jump point is between 2013 and 2015 or so. (real time, after the 2004 error is corrected)

Dunno about the "stupid" aspect, but it was shown pretty clearly, as I recall, that Cooper meant to make the jump before it got dark - so he may not have been prepared for a night jump (or a night out in the WA woods at that time of year?) Hi Orange1. I thought Cooper wanted everything on the ground by 5:00. So I would think he wouldn't be able to have a planned jump before 5:30? I thought that someone posted info showing twilight by 5:30 at that time of the year there? Can you summarize why you think Cooper meant to make the jump before dark? I'm not sure what information you're using? (edit) Post 998 of the previous thread had this info from jose9878 A tid-bit more info to support my previous post; U.S. Naval Observatory Astronomical Applications Department Sun and Moon Data for One Day The following information is provided for Seattle, King County, Washington (longitude W122.3, latitude N47.6): Wednesday 24 November 1971 Pacific Standard Time SUN Begin civil twilight 6:52 a.m. Sunrise 7:27 a.m. Sun transit 11:56 a.m. Sunset 4:25 p.m. End civil twilight 4:59 p.m. MOON Moonset 9:45 p.m. on preceding day Moonrise 12:31 p.m. Moon transit 5:40 p.m. Moonset 11:01 p.m. Moonrise 12:51 p.m. on following day Phase of the Moon on 24 November: waxing crescent with 41% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated. First quarter Moon on 25 November 1971 at 8:37 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Census Bureau map of Seattle area *Civil twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 6 degrees below the horizon. This is the limit at which twilight illumination is sufficient, under good weather conditions, for terrestrial objects to be clearly distinguished; at the beginning of morning civil twilight, or end of evening civil twilight, the horizon is clearly defined and the brightest stars are visible under good atmospheric conditions in the absence of moonlight or other illumination. In the morning before the beginning of civil twilight and in the evening after the end of civil twilight, artificial illumination is normally required to carry on ordinary outdoor activities. Complete darkness, however, ends sometime prior to the beginning of morning civil twilight and begins sometime after the end of evening civil twilight.

interesting low_pull1. I followed your thinking and looked on ebay. Here's a vendor with big selection of rounds in NB6-like containers? (it looks to me of no skill) This vendor uses the phrase "Back Pack Parachute" and "Back Pack Type" all over the place. Check this url out. There's a boatload of rigs there. Seat, Back and Chest. Chest rigs are called "Chest Pack". Seat rigs are called "Seat Pack" or "Seat Type". Back rigs are called "Back Pack". There's an NB-8 there with a 28 foot canopy. ($1200).. So talking about your phraseology, I'm wondering if pilots familar with emergency chutes, would use the "Back Pack" kind of phrase???? (military pilots say) http://stores.ebay.com/Flyboy-Plus-Aviation-Etc_Parachutes_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZQ2d1QQfsubZ8541007QQftidZ2QQtZkm NB6 is for sale here http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/US-Navy-NB6-Parachute_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ26440QQihZ005QQitemZ150080385359QQtcZphoto $1200 HEY THIS NB6 HAS A 28 FT CANOPY! Mills C-9 28 Foot Canopy - Date of MFG May 1995 New, Never Used. In Original Pack Placed in Service 1/4/07 Parachute Certified 1/4/07 Good for bail-out speeds up to 150 MPH

Questions you are asking are personal and not for a forum - so far I have been an open book but this is going too far. I think I have given FAR more DETAILS than necessary. ARE you wanting to know the most intimate details of our marriage? If you were a writer doing a book you might be entitled to answer to the details of our lives, but considering this is a public forum - You have stepped over the line. You've injected your personal life into a criminal case. I don't believe there's any legal line I've crossed. 377 can advise if I've come close to any libel issues. I believe I can do a lot. I can pay your friends for information. But there's no reason to. There's nothing to the Duane show. Why are you shocked? What code of conduct am I violating? I'm just interested in the Cooper case. Don't care about anything else.

I don't think you're thinking clearly. Or you've never walked railroad tracks. Why is the railroad track an escape route. So you get to Tina Bar. You're not done. Where do you go from there...You get off, lose some money then get back on the train? If you got on the train, there's no reason to get off at Tina Bar? The Tina Bar connection is being used to justify the validity of the train path for escape, but the Tina Bar link makes no sense, train-wise? if escape is the goal? (edit) Also you can't get off a train unless it slows to maybe 10-15mph. Faster than that is crazy? I've not heard a sensible train theory. It makes most sense to get back to Portland. You had to get to Portland area somehow to start the trip? Getting to Portland makes sense. A random railroad walk or hop makes no sense. Can you flesh it out?

What business is this of yours or anyone else? For your information my youngest daughter was with us and Duane thought the world of her. I was musing about why you might have remembered the WA trip so well. You had only known Duane 2-3? years then? and been married maybe 2? years? Was this the first big trip away without your daughter? Did you guys take other big trips like this? You remember amazing details about a single trip to WA 16-17 years later. You were working a lot of hours as you say. I'm guessing you guys didn't take very many big trips like this. Were there others? As you've seen with the Cooper case, every detail can be interesting. You believe that only the details you want to talk about are interesting in the Duane show. That's part of why your story is not believable. Fleshing out the details fleshes out the Duane profile more, I think. I think you don't want to flesh out the details more, because every detail makes it sound less like Duane the Skyjacker.

I was musing on 377's comment about stupid vs luck. I think we all don't have a good feeling for stupid vs luck for crime. Read this account of the trenchcoat guys. Biggest US bank take. $4,461,681. In Ckret's territory, and Seafirst bank, but before Ckret was there? (1997). The money weighed 355 lbs. wow. http://www.incite-pictures.com/trenchcoat_article.html How did they get caught? Wife bitching to the builder. Note that paying in cash in paper bags was fine. Bitching wasn't fine. Also shows that our ideas of difficulty in "passing money" might be misinformed? "They hired a local builder, Michael Senty, and with him designed a three-level, cedarlog home by the water. Penney paid Senty mostly in cash, in fifty and hundred dollar bills, wrapped in rubber bands and delivered in brown lunch bags. "I was led to believe that she inherited the money," Senty said. .... By the spring of 1996, the Lake Superior home was almost complete. Penney hounded Senty about the final adjustments so relentlessly that, angered by her badgering, he placed an anonymous call to the Internal Revenue Service and reported that a woman named Myra Penney had paid for a home in Hovland entirely in cash." IRS guy followed up on the anonymous tip and figured out the builder. Rest was history.

An aerial view looking north at Scholl's Airport from http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/WA/Airfields_WA_SW.html I did not find this in Cooper's wallet in the van. Picture is interesting because it gives a feel for the area in 1971. from that url: "From the 1971 WA Airport directory (courtesy of Chris Kennedy)...depicted Scholl's Airport as having a single 3,300' turf Runway 7/25....Several buildings or hangars were clustered around the west end of the runway, and a total of 7 light single-engine aircraft were visible on the field. The manager was listed as Elvin Pluckett." (edit) '69 Sectional included from that url

Not necessarily. Your statement seems to imply that Rataczak and Cooper had an equal view which they did not. Rataczak is sitting at the front of the plane with a near 180 degree view in front of him. Cooper is either looking out side windows, which gives you little indication of what is in front of you. Or he is standing at the backstairs giving no indication at all of what is in front of him. But again to know where you are in "general terms" on a plane, if you know the route doesn't require seeing anything. Agreed. If Cooper was standing on the stairs just after it passed Lake Merwin, he'd probably see the lights on the Lake Merwin Dam right? So he'd have a general feel of a couple minutes since then. Sluggo has talked about compasses and the BTG vortac turn. But just waiting a couple minutes since he saw Lake Merwin would be pretty accurate. I think Cooper had a watch since he dictated time boundaries (5:00) and complained about elapsed time (fuel truck) The lights on Merwin Dam have been highlighted by some of the TV shows on youtube.

I've been wondering why the apparent plan for a night jump was considered a bad idea. The insane thing would have been to plan a day jump. Increases the odds of getting caught dramatically? Unless it's someplace way in the middle of nowhere with no possibility of chase planes. Shouldn't we say "nite jump means smart", "day jump means stupid". How did we get to nite jump = stupid?

I've been curious about the data for the '72 map (the predicted Lake Merwin DZ) You would think it's based on the same data from the '71 map. So I checked for consistency. The '71 map has an x at the point where Lewis River (Lewis River Rd) crosses the flight path, just 1.5 miles W of Lake Merwin. The x is marked "2010" This is approximately point D on the '72 map Point D is halfway between the first two predicted drift lines. But if Point D is really at 2010 on the flight path, and the old predicted jump point was 2011, then there is inconsistency between the '71 map and the '72 map...because Point D is between two predicted drift lines, but it's before the 2011 predicted jump time, according to the '71 map. (Point D on '71 map is either 2010 or 2009 depending on whether you account for the missing 2004 tick) Somehow this has to be resolved to be confident that any good data was used to produce either map. We already know there was a 1 minute error early on (2004 was missing) on the '71 map. If so, that would mean point D is really 2009? That makes things even worse when correlating '71 map and '72 map Either the '72 map had new information and the '71 map is wrong, or the '71 map is right and the '72 map was totally bogus and a waste of time. (edit) Alternative theory: ACCWD (Any CIA Conspiracy Will Do) (edit) The most likely explanation, since "computers" were involved and more people and it was later, and maybe key people didn't review it, is that the '72 map just used bad data somehow.

I guess, even though we don't have the geology report, which could be flawed, that we're agreeing the money arrived on Tina Bar after '74. It's hard to imagine a railroad story that ties to money delivery in '74. Unless you flesh it out, shouldn't you dump any rail story? Not sure how it's workable. Also, when you mention soil burial, shouldn't you say "sand burial". Direct contact with real soil would lead to much more decomposition, right? (microbial). Or are you saying soil burial for < 8-1/2 years? Or are you saying burial in container?

A couple posts back, Jo invited me to "research her". I thought that might be an interesting side project. Jo, there are a lot of details about you and Duane that you don't highlight. Maybe you can answer some. Ckret has confirmed Duane was doing crime up to 1976. I suspect he was still doing crime after that, potentially during your marriage. Also, as you point out, you're not stupid. So all your claims to "dumb blonde" syndrome are silly. I suspect you decided to look the other way on some things. Duane was an older man. You were a younger woman, divorced, with kids? Duane took advantage of you. He was a user of people. Can you clarify some things: 1) Duane's ?5? year marriage to the woman before you? When did that end? Why did Duane pay out money to her? Why didn't he just run and hide and assume a new identity, rather than pay her off? 2) Did your kids live with you and Duane during the early years of your marriage? I'm guessing at their ages, but they would seem to have been

Was trying to visualize what Cooper might have done on landing. Gather up the canopy. Take the rig off. Now have to hide the canopy/rig. Maybe stash it somewhere. Unlikely to be be able to dig a hole. Canopy was never found though. So maybe Cooper backtracked later on (day(s) later) and retrieved the stashed stuff. If he's stashing the canopy, why not stash the money? High risk to walk around with money that night, matching the description of the hijacker. 21 lbs of money plus guy in a business suit? Sticks out. So assume he stashed money plus chute that night. Came back for it later. But not too much later. If he lives up in Seattle area, and is heading back, he's probably going to pick up the stuff the next day or so? Not going to leave it down by Portland and have to come back for it? So I'm thinking, pick up once he gets a car. But his stash wouldn't be by the Columbia. It'd be close to where he landed. (edit) Where did Coop spend the night? Maybe just crashed in the bushes. Rather than skulk around at night. Walk out next morning. Hopefully not missing a shoe, though. Noticeable. Maybe call for pickup? But unlikely to have accomplice or ???

Georger: are you referencing the report of a boat theft in the area that night? I think you mentioned it before, but could you clarify why you highlighted boat here? I've attached a recent picture of bicycles on the I5 bridge to Vancouver. So I'm assuming that Cooper could have just walked across the I5 bridge? from http://bikeportland.org/2007/06/27/expect-temporary-detour-on-i-5-bridge/ (edit) attached a better picture of the current I5 bridge over the columbia. It's an old bridge. Confirmed photo b looking close in Google Earth. They were talking about a big replacement project for this bridge recently. (edit) If cooper didn't want to be seen walking across the bridge, he would still have the visibility problem making it to wherever he parked his car beforehand? unless maybe he called someone. But then why not call from the Vancouver side? This boat theory seems unnecessarily complicated, in terms of plausability.

georger: reading thru your synopsis, it makes me think there's nothing that should make us care about the exact details of the money. Those facts should give us a reasonable guess at a Cooper LZ. Then an inspection of that LZ allows us to guess at a probability of whether a dead Cooper wasn't found. If we then agree the probability says Cooper didn't die, isn't that all we need? Or a probability that he did die and just wasn't found? Any details about how the money got to Tina Bar doesn't really help us in identifying Cooper, does it? I think we were intent on this money thing, because it might help with the flight path or LZ prediction. But now in looking at the facts you outline, it doesn't seem like the money helps in either of those. So why do we care about the money at Tina Bar? Are you thinking it might help fine tune a prediction on whether Cooper survived? I'm not sure it's needed for that?

Ckret. I really do want to understand. The money find has not changed our flight path has it? I'm assuming the flight path is the '71 map, which is unaffected by the money find. The only thing we've discussed is changing the jump point, due to oscillations/pressure bump theorizing and testimony about Portland suburb visibility. There's nothing about the money find that should change the flight path? I don't think we have? Or have we? Remember I still half support a money plant theory, so that the money has nothing to do with flight path. I still don't understand why we have a good flight path or not. I guess I don't understand the source of the '71 flight path map data, and it's reliability.

You do know the Chewbacca defense! You just invoked the second stage of it, i.e. pulling a monkey out of your pocket and saying "Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey!" causing a juror's head to explode. You are good!

hmm...just like a lawyer to argue about alternate realities. The only things that matter are what really happens or happened. What-if's don't matter, because they didn't happen.

Yes 377 that's an intelligent way to handle the data. But it doesn't answer the question of why H. would think differently and speculate about alternate flight paths. It wasn't amateur sleuths that introduced the idea of alternate flight paths. It was H. Or am I wrong? I go along with your thinking.. I just can't understand how alternate flight paths got introduced into the mythology. I've been reviewing as many mythologies as I can, trying to understand how they got introduced, or why they weren't corrected. It doesn't make sense to me. It's not just about blaming the press, I think.

oh geez. You just lost any chance at me having you on retainer! You can read it at the wikipedia url above, but you really have to listen to it to get the full effect: http://www.dylankinney.com/sounds/chewbaccadefense.wav Johnny Cochran would be proud!

Ok, we have the 1971 flight path map, and somehow Slugggo decided (maybe with input from Ckret) that the little red x marks under the pencilled path, were radar location marks. Sluggo said something about non-labelled x's being 'estimated" which I still don't follow. The x's are apparently always 1 minute apart. I don't see how they could be estimated locations if the flight path is based on them, and I can't see how the times are estimated, since there are always 1 minute apart. So something is odd in our information there. Here's what's more odd: I was musing about who started the stories about the flight path potentially being east or west of the original estimate. This was Himmelsbach right? after the money find. Now Himmelsbach had access to the whole secret box of FBI info. He had all the info we don't have. Yet he's willing to toss the flight path and say it might be wrong. Now if H. is willing to toss it, what does that mean about it's validity? Or, is it valid, and the fact that H. was willing to toss it, says something about H. or ??? Basically, nothing about the flight path, or the history of its information even up to today, makes any sense. I hereby invoke the "Chewbacca defense" which I'm sure 377 has used successfully before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense