snowmman

Lots of things are possible - theoretically. In the every day world of Cooper it is the basic facts which are lacking. That is always my end-goal. Georger Huh? what are you guys talking about. Yes you can get a bread toaster that plugs in via USB to burn whatever image you want. I thought 377 was just discussing facts when he mentioned it. http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/12/scan-toaster-puts-the-power-of-miracle-toast-into-the-hands-of/ It was a concept design for a contest this year sponsored by Electrolux. Hey georger, you should also calculate the shock loading on the money bag attach if there was a canopy deployment..it is probably a little worse then the loading from turbulent air on jet exit? how come no jumpers step in here to give the calcs for a 28' round/200 lb/canopy open at various speeds? I read a description of a program pifcalc for calculating/estimating? Also oscalc is mentioned? http://www.pcprg.com/pifprog.htm is this garbage? "The PCPRG has developed a new software diagnostic tool aimed at providing a user-friendly computer program for the computation of the maximum parachute drag force generated during inflation" re: the thread management philosophy: keep 'em in the dark, feed them ..

Is it in the cupboard?

Its all in the toaster - I caught you leaking info inadvertently. There's a coffee maker and grinder in the background. Ralph Himmelsbach drinks coffee. Attached is a picture, with his name and "Special Agent" on the coffee cup, so you know it's true. He's doing this even though he's retired. (evidence: 2nd pic) Why? The FBI needs to provide some answers here. I spent 4 minutes verifying this before I posted.

Actually Jo I am just wondering about something: do you have any independent verification that this guy actually is who he says he is? Did you track him down while looking for the night clerk, or did he find you? And if he found you, how - over the internet? Do you have anything other than his say-so that he is who he says he is? orange1: I posted the stuff about "niteclerk" arriving on the sitcoms forum Jo posted to. Jo also posted an email from the supposed night clerk (possibly a different person) to this forum. I just noticed that that email was prefaced with the name Jo used on the suite101 forum "homes4ubyjo" So this night clerk person or person(s) has a number of arrivals. It would be real interesting to understand the details of "first contact". It's interesting even as a SETI like event...i.e. Jo claims all these contacts from strange people. She says the first contact with night clerk was by phone..but then the phone number was no longer good. I always wondered if all email/post contacts arrived "after" she posted details of the phone contact with night clerk or what...Or how she verified all the various contacts were the same person. Here's her prior post on DZ showing (a) "night clerk" must have emailed her based on her suite101 stuff. (edit) Why is a night clerk bragging about "been there-done that" ? extreme-night-clerking? (edit) with this post she also mentioned a phone call from china (unknown how verified). The initial phone calls, with the guy and his wife, apparently were not from China though. Not clear if the wife is still around with the new night clerk or what. (edit) I just noticed the date was 1/17/2008 on the received email. That's odd when coupled with "HOMES4UBYJO" since she had left suite101 and migrated here by then. Did Jo fake it or did she really get it with her old name, on that date?? confirmed: Homes4ubyjo at aol.com. Was it still active in 2008? Jo posted on June 7, 2008 at 12:51 AM, the following: Date: 1/17/2008 9:12:52 PM Central Standard Time To: HOMES4UBYJO Quote Dear Jo, I enjoy reading the excerpts from skeptics who were not there to give 'credence' to matters they have no first hand knowledge of. There was a registration card signed by " D B Cooper ". The name on that card was "------------" . I may have been only a 27 year old at that time but I still have a very good memory of that incident because of the 'questioning' that I received by the investigators involved that following evening when I came to work. My mind is as good now as it was then because I have kept it that way. I support you in your quest and have seen nothing as yet to doubt or question your evidence or my belief in that evidence as related to the facts as I know them to be true! I am not one for euphemisms as you know, however you can tell these non-believers that unless they have "been there-done that" they are just spreading their lies ,they know nothing, and they can go to hell! With my best wishes for your success,yours truly --------.

I went thru a cbsnews video and got some more snaps. These have a little more than we've seen before. I'll just highlight what's interesting 1) there are some manila envelopes in the evidence box in addition to the stuff we know about. Maybe they just hold the tie and stuff. (maybe the flight path map?) You can also see a closer up of the parachute cord in one snap. 2) You can see the hooks on the back of the chest reserve. They're actually relatively large. If you look for it in the ev1 snap, you can see a close up. ev3a is fuzzier but you can see the hooks on the back. They're bigger than the modern day b-12 snap? Comparing to the rig gear page wolfriverjoe mentioned, they look like MS70121 spec links. (size-wise?) I've attached a picture of that link for comparison. (from the rig gear page) 3) ev5 is another snap of the ticket. I believe you can see the date printed on it. We've questioned this before. I believe it's in the box below the big black number 1. The 11 and 71 are visible. The 24 not so much? (edit) oh yeah, in the audio of that recent cbsnews video, Brian offered a different description of the money find. He described it like a piece of "petrified wood". Which doesn't make any sense, but I wondered if it reinforced the idea of all 3 bundles well stuck together, independent of the crumbling rubber bands. (edit) oh yeah, I'm assuming the bank bag in ev2 with the neck tie, is just an experiment someone was doing. Not sure if it's exactly the same as Cooper's bank bag. Be nice to know if so.

I'm not so sure. The scene would have been a lot smaller in the 60s, and if I think of SA for example - everyone either knows everyone or knows someone who does, despite the distances between DZs. I know I'm an outsider, and I sound like a dickhead. But let's test it. I doubt anyone will respond for a variety of reasons. here goes: Saigon Sport Parachute Club. Late '60s. Vietnam. Organized as a civilian club. That made it interesting because 1) it's a war zone 2) kind of an issue about civilians jumping from US military planes, right? So it's kind of interesting thinking about the jump arrangements. They evidently did a bunch of Sikorsky (VNAF-owned?) jumps, including some US civilians. So I was thinking that all this talk about Vietnam connections being unlikely before, was B.S. since everyone is fixated on the stats on serving military, but obviously that's not the only thing to think about. (Hahneman is an obvious related example..age/contractor) But I found one possible story of a supposed rent of a C-47 Dakota for a load. (late '60s) So: anyone going to call bullshit on me, or say how much an hour the club paid for the Dakota? I guess my point is: US person does necessarily mean always-US.

whoops this is one of those inadvertent posts Jo catches me with...damn how do I turn this thing off...it's leaking info everywhere.. I just finished reading a manuscript that ends with someone buying a one way ticket with twentys and making a parachute jump...and has the phrases "not to try any funny stuff", "let's get the show on the road" and boeing, issaquah, and saigon in it. Written between '71-'73 in Nepal by a US citizen in his 40's. Now how weird is that? Just another weird coincidence though. I do believe the claims that everyone knew everyone in the skydiving scene in the late '60s is kinda bullshit though. A lot more people jumping than how it seems to be implied here?

some redundancy in the description. Tell her you've been told you walk like a bog man. (just trying to be a wing man here) Hey georger I was thinking of you and sand. I was rummaging thru my collection of pics and staring at Tina. I mean Tena's Bar. I've posted this color snaps before, but we've mostly stared at black and white photos of the money dig. As georger seems to have been talking about tests on the money, it got me thinking about the black sand in the photos. I may not have posted all these snaps before. One interesting thing is that the trench shown, doesn't seem to be one of the two trenches shown in the b/w photo with the backhoe. (the site 2 photo) It seems to have been dug up closer to the treeline. maybe parallel to the river. (edit) in fact here's a mystery. The orange vested guy is clearly visible in the background of the unnumbered snap. He's in closeup in snap numbered 2. it seems like they were digging in a wide area. (edit) SafecrackingPLF talked about taking video of Tena Bar within the last month and talking about debris there. I thought we had a lot of photos from 1980 that got posted here of the dig (AP/UPI/CBS video) so I'm not sure there's anything we're missing...unless people can mention something? You can see the relative amount of debris (slight?) in the snaps attached. This CBS video is kind of a hassle to find. Looking at the incline of the piled up sand at the trench dig, a soils person could probably estimate based on slump or something, something about the sand? (moisture level? or ??)

all new posters drink for free

Jo, I've got a question. I just posted a map above "Found in the van" that has hand printing on it. I was expecting you to say it would match the hand printing of "Toutle" on your map, and I'd have a good giggle. Why do you latch on some "likeness" you see in one picture (pulling silver), but not the hand printing "likeness" in another? Was it the beer cans? I thought that was clever at the time. Or was it the sunglasses? What's the difference? It's like I need to know if the brass spinner or the #00 red devil is better. Honestly. I can't figure it out. Those two pics were just random pics off the web. The upside is that it confirms for me why all your other "data" is bogus. Your data gathering has no credibility. Here's another pic (attached). You can see Cooper walking down the street on the left. (black pants and white shirt). Of course, it's total bullshit. I don't know what to say. I'm sorry? I am. Somehow, you don't seem to have any idea of how big the world and history is. Over 6 million tons of bombs were used by US during the Vietnam war. Almost 3x the tonnage used in WWII. Can you imagine the scale of that operation? Can you imagine how many photos exist of how many people during that era? Billboards are not postcards from giants. There are 24 letters in the alphabet. Soy Milk is not espanol. Africa is a continent. Hopefully those vets you talk to, get bought free drinks, at least.

Hi wolfriverjoe I'm still fishing for history of civilian night free falls in '60s. I've seen a pic of early night N-ways. (with flare..made me think of Cooper, his flares, and 3 stewardesses :) ) Did people also brag about altitude night free fall records back then? Just read an interesting article that claimed Lt. Col. Donald R. Strobaugh made the first military "delayed free fall night" with full equipment in September 1959 at Fort Campbell, Ky. Don't know if that's true. Read another thing that implied civilian night sport jumps in Southeast Asia in the mid '60s. Be interesting to hear any stories about the state of affairs for relative frequency of civilians doing night sport jumps mid to late '60s. I was also wondering if anyone ever kludged a chest reserve by clipping it's snaplinks (assuming old t-10 style chest with snaplinks) directly onto the rolled flat webbing of a chest/shoulder harness. Metal against nylon...so not totally insane. Kinda nuts. (edit) also wondering. Were there two styles of chest reserves (surplus) in use back then? snaplinks on the chest, or d-rings on the chest and snaplinks on the harness? I was wondering if Cooper asked for two of each, to try to ensure that he'd get some combo that would match up right, that he liked...

yes, side door exits in a tailgate plane, but dont ask me why. Maybe some ex Airborne can enlighten us. After some bad experiences the USAF added deployable windblast deflectors ahead of the side doors on C 141s. 377 odd trivia: (you can tell I'm a fan of odd relations) C-141's had two hijack attempts in Vietnam during the war. story of one is here: (Bien Hoa air base, tail number 66-0192, maybe around '70?) http://www.c141heaven.com/66/pic_66_0192.html or can search this page for the same story http://www.c141heaven.com/mishap_paul_hansen.htm

from a web site. If in the 2000 prior posts someone posted a history of jet jumps, I apologize. "The first C-141A, delivered to Tinker AFB, Okla., in October 1964, began squadron operations in April 1965. The C-141 was the first jet transport from which U.S. Army paratroopers jumped. It can hold 155 paratroopers." First flown: 17 December 1963. 284 built, last delivered December 1966 B and C mods were to the original A's? I'll skip the photo. It has a rear ramp, high tail. 4 wing engines. Pic shows rear ramp being used for cargo drops. But apparently paratroops jumped from side doors?

So I started wondering about the history of civilian jet jumps. The first sport parachute tested from a jet apparently was in 1959 in El Centro? So I was thinking, maybe in the '60s there were some non-military jet jumps. Maybe people associated with military but not real military. Be interesting if people have history here. I suspect some may have been illegal or outside the U.S. ? Don't know. In any case, I searched on DZ.com, and found an interesting story that I'll repost without the name. The jump seems to date to early '80s, so not what I was looking for, but interesting nonetheless as an example case. It's not a jet jump but still.. What's interesting is the poster only had static line jumps before his first freefall jump, which was at 200mph exit speed...((edit) I had assumed AN-26 was jet..it's turboprop) and it was at night. He claims to have pulled within 4 seconds. T-4 is a 28' round? AN-26 had 275 mph cruise speed so the 200mph exit claim is viable? What gets me about this, is that it seems the jumps that more closely match Cooper's (for instance the '72 hijack jumps) seem to discount all the caveats from jumpers here about needed experience, and likely outcomes. (I'm not interested in 100% success guarantee scenarios) How do I digest that? This account is nice because we don't have first person accounts from the '72 hijack jumpers. I was interested in the opening shock, also note "first freefall". I'm not offending the poster since he posted it elsewhere here at DZ.com snip from the post "Mine was so stupid that I've become aware of it's danger 20 years after the jump itself. It was my first freefall, I had some 17 military (static-line & drogue chute combined jumps with only two jumps in my club before the army). Well, after I've served I continued to fly sailplanes but I wanted to jump, so my friend (a chief instructor in my club) said, hell, no problem. At that time our military pilots had some night dropping excersises and they asked civilian jumper to do the jumping, which of course all of the clubs in the country excepted gladly. It's been more than two years since my last (static-line) jump and but the problem was those jumps had to freefalls - the planes were AN-26s and the exit speed was 200 mph (I jumped those in the army but only with that static-line/drogue chute combination). I said OK, no problem and there I was in the middle of the night with the T-4 on my back and the Z-5 reserve on my chest (a russian round which was old even 25 years ago). Of course, the night was dark as hell, no full moon or stuff and the landing zone was far out on the plowed fields (don't ask why) disected with those water cannals. There were no ground lights, no nothing. The ramp opened, the jump run begun, a dim red to green lihts fired and there I went, with that warm smell of jet fuel and a mighty whooooooosshhhhhh (you have actually to slow down to terminal after exiting that AN-26). Of course, I've tumbled, didn't see a thing but I felt the wind and the sound changing around me. The altitude was 4 grand so after a 4-5 seconds I pulled and that T-4 smashed me good but I felt extatic with joy. It was pretty windy down there (way above the legal limit for round night jumps) and I hit some rock hard hump of plowed dirt and - of course broke my leg (actually, I find out that it's broken the other day - so full of adrenaline I was, we had to walk over a mile that night but that ment nothing to me). "

There was a report 2 months ago on a model program called A-Space for inside the cia/fbi community? (a social networking thingee) http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/ptech/09/05/facebook.spies/index.html?eref=edition "It's a place where not only spies can meet but share data they've never been able to share before," Wertheimer said. "This is going to give them for the first time a chance to think out loud, think in public amongst their peers, under the protection of an A-Space umbrella." Inevitably the future will be stuff like this, but half-inside/half-outside. Think cathedral vs bazaar. It was interesting that model was quoted by someone in describing Obama's success. Basically, it works. With one million eyeballs, no problem stays hidden. A lot of the data mining stuff the fbi/cia is doing is apparently turning up too many false positives and ending up being a waste of time (homeland security report). (ah duh! racial profiling doesn't work!) The model of protector/protected doesn't really work. It's also why it doesn't work to send armies off to kill as many people as possible. It's more complicated than that. Embrace the complexity. It's the future. (edit) This is crass, but in that CNN article, this reminded me of my comment about whether all data available went into the '72 DZ map "Missing crucial data can have enormous implications, such as an FBI agent who sent an e-mail before September 11, 2001, warning of people learning to fly airplanes but not learning to land them." Yes, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to worry too much about "bandwidth"...but only organizations that worry about centralization/information too much have that problem. 300 million people is a lot of bandwidth.

:) On May 21, 2008 5:27 PM (page 70) Sluggo Monster posted: "If this thread dies....... I will have no one to argue with....... I'll go back to beating my wife....... You'll find her standing over my body with my Glock in her hand, asking: "How do I re-load this damned thing?" I'll be dead and It'll be all your fault. So, somebody make something up... keep this thread alive! Keep Sluggo Alive! Sluggo_Monster (stalled out, waiting for data)" I replied: "There are easily 100 things that have not been discussed. I'll throw out one or two that people here might have good insight on, or opinions to keep Sluggo alive, or can say "it's in the old thread.." " While I've gone thru the 100 things I had in mind, I do find comfort in knowing that Sluggo's wife probably doesn't get up to piss every hour at night, so her aim might not be so good. I'll put in a word for Sluggo. He seems to have started updating his website again after a long wait. So at least Sluggo is alive. Hopefully the wife isn't in the freezer. http://n467us.com he has added links to articles..see left side index.

weird. Tina said the same thing to Cooper. (of course, Cooper might have just been bullshitting me about that).

We all have our problems Larry. You should think about yours.

If I had a telephoto lens, would I have photos of you banging Ivana Nizich in Iraq? Or was that Duane Weber?

Is that the FBI is incompetent, mostly, and relies on bullshit in the press. The article below at Wired mistakenly chopped the last line: "When contacted, Snowmman commented "Don't worry about them. It's the guy next door that's more competent". Hey Jo provides the existence proof why phishing scams are so easy. People want to believe things, and it's easy to manipulate using text and images. The worst is when the guvt does the same thing. from: http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/07/fbi_spyware?currentPage=all "Larry Carr, a spokesman with the FBI's Seattle field office, couldn't confirm that the CIPAV is the same software previously known as Magic Lantern, but emphasized that the bureau's technological capabilities have grown since the 2001 report. The case shows that FBI scientists are equipped to handle internet threats, says Carr. "It sends a message that, if you're going to try and do stuff like this online, that we have the ability to track individuals' movements online and bring the case to resolution." .....uh yeah. right.

hey, don't joke. Last night I was reading the English/French translations of this prose poem below, and today for the first time you post poetry. Yeah, I wondered WTF for a second. Oh yeah, all those jpgs you posted are unreadable. I tried adjusting them, but maybe you need to try scanning them at higher resolution or something. Can't make out anything. Arthur Rimbaud A Season in Hell. Once, if I remember it well, my life was a feast where all hearts opened and all wines flowed. One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter. And I cursed her. I armed myself against justice. I fled. O Witches, O Misery, O Hate, to you has my treasure been entrusted! I contrived to purge my mind of all human hope. On all joy, to strangle it, I pounced with the stealth of a wild beast. I called to the executioners that I might gnaw their rifle-butts while dying. I called to the plagues to smother me in blood, in sand. Misfortune was my God. I laid myself down in the mud. I dried myself in the air of crime. I played sly tricks on madness. And spring brought me the idiot's frightful laughter. Now, only recently, being on the point of giving my last squawk, I thought of looking for the key to the ancient feast where I might find my appetite again. Charity is that Key.--This inspiration proves that I have dreamed! "You will always be a hyena. . ." etc., protest the devil who crowned me with such pleasant poppies. "Attain death with all your appetites, your selfishness and all the capital sins!" Ah! I'm fed up:--But, dear Satan, a less fiery eye I beg you! And while awaiting a few small infamies in arrears, you who love the absence of the instructive or descriptive faculty in a writer, for you let me tear out these few, hideous pages from my notebook of one of the damned.

Todays' winds at 10,000 ft, across the entire USA (attached map) 60-70 knot winds at 10k are not uncommon? from http://www.weather.com/maps/activity/aviation/us10000footwindsaloft_large.html even at 5000 ft strong winds today in places: 2nd attach http://www.weather.com/maps/activity/aviation/us5000footwindsaloft_large.html

The 1000 ft/min descent rate may be "light". Don't have info on 1971 era 28' round. but here's a whuffo guess: (edit) fixed oops on min vs sec. Using some data from Butler's site http://www.butlerparachutes.com/howto2.htm USAF/USN 28' C-9 (interestingly, at least modern day version, says 300 lb max weight with 225 KIAS max speed..impressive...chart says drop tested at >300 lb and >250 KIAS ..strong I guess...) drag area is 446 sq ft. (but what about back in 1971?) Using Butlers chart of drag area/descent rate/weight (attached) http://www.butlerparachutes.com/howto1.htm 200 lb load with 446 sq ft drag gives about a 19 ft/sec descent rate. that's about 1140 ft/min that's at sea level though. butler has a chart for adjusting for altitude. (thinner air/faster ...hmm does humidity affect this? is air thicker with humidity???) http://www.butlerparachutes.com/howto.htm averaging from 9000 to 0, looks to be 1.075 i.e. 7.5% faster descent rate on avg, compared to the sea level graph? so 1.07*1140 = 1219 ft/min? (edit) fixed min. (we don't know Cooper's weight. Also not sure what butler's load includes...parachute + rig might be added weight too) (edit) I love the opportunity to dig at Ckret. Remember when we were talking about the fuzziness about whether it was a 26' round or a 28' round. It's totally unclear what canopy data was used in the '72 calcs. (edit) and fuck your old calcs! I just noticed the page 273 Ckret provides is about landing at ???' MSL???. (edit) 2500 was my error that was low opening) So the canopy drift is wrong when used further south...i.e. the plane altitude is wrong, plus the landing altitude is wrong? I'm a whuffo and I can see that. And the page 272 and 273 make no mention of what canopy was used for descent rate calcs.

Thanks Ckret. This is new source data you haven't provided before (I think you posted numbers but didn't give the source of them). Doesn't matter how faded. I know you fade them first with Photoshop just so it takes us a couple of weeks and 100 posts to agree on what they say. :) Soon you'll be posting some faded toast pictures for us. (hey! maybe that will be the new evidence)

okay, obviously we have to keep a "sick" Ckret from getting mentally sicker. :) Let's revisit Canopy Drift. I know people will groan like this is a rehash..but when you look back in the thread, we talked about Canopy Drift in detail only with the old DZ, not after we agreed on a new DZ. I got to thinking about it again when I suggested that Ckret couldn't just shift the 1972 DZ calcs down south a bit and say "good enough" I posted a picture before under the title "what we need" to get a canopy drift from a jump near 8:15 on the flight path, to Tena Bar. I'm a fan of predicted SE winds down there, although that's debatable. (edit) remember I had posted stuff that suggests SE might be right. I didn't get much response at the time...but I just went thru the search and found a old drift analysis/estimate from SkydiveJack on Jan 15, 2008 11:48 AM, which got me thinking about it again. I'm going to assume we don't have accurate wind data down near PDX, and instead think about might make it work. I was interested in whether an 8 mile or so canopy drift was possible. Assume winds were at 60 knots at exit, linearly decreasing to 20 knots at ground level. Can use 40 knot average then. Maybe also throw in 5 knots if the round chute somehow got some forward speed? So 45 knots total (avg) during the ride. That's .75 miles/minute, right? (edit) just noticed I used wrong conversion here...45 knots would be .86 miles/minute. 40 knots is 0.77 miles/minute. I'll leave my old numbers below. A 10 minute canopy ride would get you 7.5 miles. (maybe the exit altitude was >10,000 ft down near PDX?) See attached photo for a canopy drift possibility I was measuring way back in the thread. Swing it a bit to shorten it from the flight path, and you can see that 8 miles is interesting. This is assuming 1000ft/min. descent rate What kind of modifications to a 28' round might give it forward speed? SkydiveJack mentioned that without details. (edit) read up on panel mods. I guess we don't know if there were any. (edit) the pt labelled "2015 guess" in the picture really isn't 2015..that's an old guess from before Ckret gave us the radar tick flight path detail. 2015 is closer to the columbia. (edit) also remember there could be 0.5 mi to 1 mile error in the flight path recorded that could work favorably. The paper on comparing gps to radar suggested to me the 0.5 nm error prediction back in 1972 might be "light". Plus there is transcription error to map?