snowmman

The Citizen's Club apparently hadn't seen the pants stories before. Last May, I obliquely made mention to it, with a reference to the McNally pants stories. Since I like those pants stories, I'll repost. We may have to restart, since pants were at question 96. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- some more detail on the McNally capture. Evidently not all of the capture detail was in my prior post, and it's funny/interesting. Attached is a news article from 7/1/72. Apparently he was picked up by a local cop and kept under surveillance? He apparently lost his pants on the jump, but found a new pair of pants. Got a bruised face on the jump. (plus some other bruises apparently from rig straps?) Note pilots told FBI that they expected he died on the jump because of the speed. Much like people have said about Cooper, actually. His partner didn't turn until the police pointed out how bad his story was. Hmm..amazing how the details of things are always more complicated than you first read about. I'm still not sure about all the details of this McNally thing. It looks like it was Detroit Police who cracked the case, not FBI Although the FBI claims they had prints from the hijack note. Also, correlating to the note about difficulties understand the rig (above) one article suggested this could have been McNally's first jump. Don't know for sure. (This post was edited by snowmman on May 23, 2008, 10:29 PM) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suppose they found pants with the chute and gun? (don't know how close). But then they wonder how McNally made it back to Michigan from Indiana (they weren't sure how) and he had pants. It sounds dumb once you think of the rig straps, eh? Maybe he left "spare" pants he didn't use with the chute? More likely someone messed up in the initial story, I suppose. It looks like after 7/1/72 they don't repeat the pants angle anymore. What's also funny, is that there were a number of reports of pants found in the Cooper jump zone thru the years. Some articles imply McNally was just "holding" the money bag, but that's hard to believe. He must have attached it somehow...dunno...it blew away no matter what. BUT: assuming he kept his pants..it does tell us that there's an existence proof for novice jumper, just wearing pants, at night? don't know what shoes or if had goggles. Interestingly, if he didn't lose his pants (shred) that's good data too. Means Cooper might not have been noticeable from shredded pants! (I almost love talking about pants theories more than rubber band theories!) And we're not even past question 96 yet! ------------------------------------------------------------ (edit) Just adding this. I rescanned the Gunther Placard photo. Had to read up on moire patterns from halftones! I think this is a better scan now. Remember that Gunther used newspaper articles in his book.

There's a picture of the pants that were found in the video (we talked about this story from news articles). (if I remember weren't they just wrong, per description?) In the background there's a picture of the placard found. In one of the books I had there's a better placard photo than anything the FBI put up recently. I didn't scan it because I didn't think it was useful. Yes it's Gunther's book. I just scanned it and added that also. Edit: note there's been reports of the placard being both inside and outside the plane. And that mechanics would say the outside one would fall off a lot. That issue has never been clarified here

There are two videos available from kgw. I looked them over. Not really certain there's anything there that's interesting. However I did snap one frame. I had badgered Ckret about whether there were photos of the money that we hadn't seen from 1980 (when first found). Tom Kaye is seen holding a photo of the money, that we haven't seen. Notably, it's a picture of a bundle, specifically what I (guessing) called "shifted bill bundle" with a speculation that it must have shifted while dry. Which might be totally bogus. I don't know what Tom K's speculation was from the photo. (Maybe it's not the bundle I think it is?) (edit) I just compared the serial number on it to the corbis table photo (the serials I could see) and it doesn't match. Maybe it's a bundle in the back on the table. I can't see in in the cropped top AP shot either. So it's unclear which it is. Tom says something in the video pointing to it, but he must be just spouting off, because what would he know from a picture? In any case, that one snap is attached. There are other photos in the video that we've already seen. I think they are all press photos. They mention the Oregonian, a local paper. I'm not sure if they maybe visited the Oregonian to look at archival photos. It's possible the Club has access to FBI photos, but it's unclear. I believe it was all filmed in the Portland/Vancouver area, so they wouldn't have travelled to get anything from Larry. I have no idea why this photo of a bundle exists. It could be a zoom in of the full green-table b/w photos. Or a photo taken by a news guy that day (most probable). Be nice if Tom gave us some more on what he was trying to say when he pointed to this picture. (edit) while subject to interpretation, I don't think this is a photo of a single bill. Doesn't look like our normal single bill photos. (edit) if people think the kgw page vids are too small http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyJM_cfADe4&feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chGO-axsbOo&feature=channel_page My first thought on the first video, is that the huge tracts of land needed some comment, but upon reflection, they spoke for themselves.

In reviewing stuff, I was wondering about how people parse information. (added some new details since the last time I mentioned LaPoint) 1) How many people think LaPoint would have died on the ground in CO if he wasn't found right away? Note it was Jan 20, 1972. Still looking for exact temps, but it was colder than Cooper's. 2) How many people think the Akron,CO DZ was planned, or random? 3) How far do you think he might have had to go to "get out?" Note they found him in a field. They didn't helicopter in to find him. 4) Depending on how you feel about LaPoint's landing, what's different about it compared to Cooper's? Some people think "old men" are inferior to young men in endurance activities. If you've ever studied that physiology thing, like for marathon training, you realize that being 23, vs 45, is not necessarily as huge an advantage as one might think. Why is Cooper considered burdened by age, in terms of "getting out alive". ?? Note that LaPoint had training, but jumped in crazy clothes (cowboy boots and western shirt) and got injured on landing. It doesn't seem like the Army paratrooper training helped him at all? Landed in CO wheat field. He asked for a helmet. Don't know if he got or used one. Other details per: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CEAOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e38DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6624,4063013&dq=lapoint+hijack He was 13 miles from the nearest town but only 1/2 mile from the nearest road. Akron, CO had population 1,890. Plane was going about 140 knots or maybe 180 mph (2 reports) when he bailed. Note he was the dumb guy with a clock that I mentioned, on his fake bomb. He also didn't know how to open the door. (edit) The article also says he threw a briefcase in the air when spotted. So he somehow successfully jumped with a briefcase. Maybe attached to himself somehow. See the google url above. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Repost of the only DC-9 jump. (LaPoint) with some stuff from "the good book" at http://books.google.com/...hyJHTQC&pg=PA751 Richard Charles LaPoint, 23, an ex-Army paratrooper. Apparently from Revere, MA, or Seabrook NH? Vietnam vet. Was a salesman in Denver. Hughes Airwest Flight 800. It was out of DC-9, not a 727. The kid only asked for $50,000. Injured on landing. Must have been a little chilly too. Jumped in cowboy boots. Day jump..about 3:25 PM. Asked for helmet in addition to the two chutes and money. This cowboy had highway flares wired to a clock. Plane started in Las Vegas, Landed in Denver, CO to get money and two chutes. Jumped near Akron, CO. Used alias "John Shane". from the article: "...mustachioed young man, dressed in cowboy boots and Western clothes... ... The next report,...came at 1:57 PM when the plane was flying at 12,000 feet near Denver. At that time the hijacker was reported seeking instructions on how to open a seldom-used door at the rear of the plane. The opening of this door was described as hazardous by the airline spokesman, who said it was situated beneath the two engines mounted on the rear of the fuselage. The pilot of the hijacked airliner..said later that the man bailed out at 12,000 feet while the plane was traveling 180 miles an hour. ... Two Air Force F-111 fighter-bombers trailed the hijacked plane....pilots ..spotted the parachute blossoming below the hijacked craft. ... ..officers had tracked the accused hijacker through snow and mud, finding him lying in a field about a half-mile from the nearest road. He complained of an injured leg."

There's been a lot of info about the problems with having a bag attached to Cooper, during the jump. I was watching this vid of a Russian guy playing the accordion on a jump. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b1q9dz9jXM&feature=related It can't be true, right, for a few reasons 1) You wouldn't be able to hear the accordion and hold a tune 2) The chaos of the jump, etc. 3) They're Russian, not American. (just kidding, it's obvious he's a skilled accordion player, which explains things)

Looking at those ankle boots, I wonder if Cooper was wearing big heels like that? Maybe that's why he appeared to be 5'11" - 6' ??? maybe he was a shorter guy with big heels on his ankle boots. I think maybe a lot of the ankle boots had big heels?

these almost look like jumper boots to me (from back then) (edit) caption from the auction ad: "Great looking vintage 1960s or early 1970s dark gray ankle boots. Size 7-1/2D, 2" stacked heel, 11" heel to toe, 3.75" wide. Square toe box with accent black stitching. Quality leather which is nicely broken in. Designer or bootmaker is illegible."

A chain of ifs: If Cooper had shoes that would rip off, they'd rip off even if he no-pulled. If he jumped and landed in the Columbia, his shoes would have fallen somewhere. Maybe floated if they landed in the Columbia. Maybe somewhere around Portland/Vancouver. (edit) vintage 1970s ankle boots from the web (zip up) many variations. (attached)

I've read a lot of the old-timers talking about the Golden Age of jumping...the 70's I guess. And it got me wondering about how people weren't so focused on jobs and money (if you were young) cause there wasn't any. Are we returning to that kind of thing? where people just do crazy shit and not talk about whether it makes sense any more because what the fuck are you going to do anyhow? Is the guy who can afford to bring the case of beer going to be everyone's friend? Jumping off cliffs cause no one can afford planes? Is Crazy Billy going to be sewing up military surplus gear, selling out of the back of his van in the parking lot? Hell if I know, maybe that's the scene already.

There aren't many color photos of WWII gear (thinking about 377's comment) There are guys who collect WWII gear, and a nice page of color photos (modern) of guys wearing the old gear (some is repro, but these guys are real into it, accuracy is important) Funny, one guy has a briefcase in a photo. actually worth looking at for all you real jumpers http://www.303rdbg.com/uniforms-gear.html Was the idea that you grab the chute and clip it on and then jump? It looks like they didn't wear the chutes all the time, just the rig? scrolling down, there's a picture of a waist gunner. scary looking job. (edit) I read one or two stories of emergency WWII jumps where the guy talked about having to punch out his canopy from the container. I thought one mentioned there was a board or something in them. dunno. (edit) Note in some (not all) of these color photos, the container has the D-rings and the rig has the hooks. (opposite of what we normally discuss). You can see that up close in some of the pics.

"SnowBBall is right. He wont any more jump into the Washougal than he will stop posting on internet forums." Hi georger. Are you saying you're getting the money together? The original post didn't mention jumping. I said you could put me anywhere you want. I agree that might make it difficult to keep it "unknown area" to me. The problem with jumping is that it's likely I'd get injured on the landing. I'm up for any proposal for getting me to the area without knowing where it is, though. If a jump was involved, me being a total novice, there would have to be more money. maybe $10k if it was during the day, and the weather was good. (and 377 got me skilled up) (edit) Here's the thing about why guys like Jerry are bigger losers than me. They never clarify what their theory is. Because once you clarify, you can analyze. A lot. For instance. If Cooper was injured on landing, and that's why he didn't get out, that means he deployed, and somehow magically landed in the Washougal. (smaller target than Columbia!). And the deployed chute wasn't found (it didn't get caught in trees? Cooper hid it, though injured?) And that the theory is more probable than any other theory. Please continue analyzing me Georger. I'm not fixed yet. Note a no-pull into the Washougal makes it even harder. The plane has to be further off course, because you can't make up a canopy drift to account for a couple miles. (edit) So, can you tell me more about your castration fantasies, georger? How do you feel about them?

"When he emerges alive from the killer Washougal, after a near crucifixion and a crown of blackberry thorns, he will be hailed as a messiah. The Vatican will denounce him as a false prophet but it wont slow him down one bit. The Snowbball is on a roll." Too funny, 377. I can't take it. I am gagging on my coffee. I have the image in my mind. The crown of blackberry thorns is the spice that will make it go totally viral. Youtube video. 3 million hits. I dream of it.

The thing Lord Cooper teaches us, is to adapt, to never give up, that we don't have to prove all paths lead to success, just find that one, even if we have to invent it. So in that vein, March Madness month has been redefined. EVERY post has to mention Duane. (or Weber) Duane. (my avatar, should not be considered meeting the requirements of March Madness. First it's a picture. Second, it isn't insane enough)

Have to type fast. Knew that the reveal of uranium from gold mines in South Africa would lead to something. March 1957. Popular Mechanics releases an article on how to build "The Prospector's Partner", a combination geiger counter and portable radio. (pic 1) This is part of a generalized madness about finding uranium everywhere, for the government. A uranium rush, with geiger counters being used on private planes to scan areas. What was the "Big Plan" mentioned in this ad? Was it the hijack? (pic 2) Explosion in sales of devices such as "The Wedgie", by a mysterious, secret, perhaps CIA-backed company called Scintillonics, in Fort Collins, Colorado, perhaps employing Duane's brother. (pic 3) Dan Cooper invents the "Cutie Pie" detector but is fired using on local females. (pic 4) He leaves and builds the "Nucliometer", also known as the Cooper Detector (pic 5) per http://www.orau.org/PTP/collection/surveymeters/Detectrondg299.htm the device uses 3 types of batteries one 67.5 volt "B" (Eveready No.467), three 30 volt "B" (Eveready No. 413), three 1.5 volt "A" (standard D cells) pics 6 and 7 are of Eveready No. 467 and No. 413. I have also included No. 416 which is 67.5 Volts also. Did Cooper have a Eveready No. 413 in his briefcase? Is that why Tina couldn't identify it? Significantly, this ties together the questions of why 377, Sluggo_monster, Orange1 and Duane. Did Cooper jump with a nuclear bomb? If not, why did Duane have the Soldier of Fortune magazine portraying that? Or only with gold? Or only with the money. Interestingly, in a future hijack, gold bars actually were delivered to the hijacker on the plane. Why? Did Cooper used a combination geiger counter/radio to communicate with accomplices on the ground? No animals were harmed in the creation of this post.

oh well, already a Fail Georger said: "Duane's famous words - Hide it in plain site." I tried. Well, I get to go now Duane, Duane, Duane, Duane, Duane, Duane, Duane, Duane. Duane.

Little Baldy is a nice like peak on the map, about 5 miles NW of Dougan Falls. It is very serious. 3945 feet in elevation, and not for the faint of heart. It almost approaches the elevation of some peaks in the East. I figured I'd look on the web, since everything is on the web, and here's a page with some nice hiking pics and information. The 1902 forest fire is interesting. There are plenty of hiking trails for you. There is some bushwhack, some logging trail. Caption for the attached pic is "Little Baldy on the right, Silver Star Mt. is the saddle-shaped peak to Little Baldy's left. (the right hump is the summit.) The Chinook Trail can be seen entering the mostly Silver Fir forest in the center. Photo taken from the Bluff Mt. Bluffs" nice area pictures at the site http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/154619/little-baldy.html There are MANY pictures of mountains/hills in the area at this page. Hills are nice to stand on to see where you're going to go (for $1000/day :) http://www.summitpost.org/object_list.php?object_type=1&distance_1=100&distance_lat_1=45.74740&distance_lon_1=-122.20360&map_1=1&is_open=1 Just click on the little red icons, and you'll get a picture. "The aptly named Little Baldy is a near perfect three-sided triangle of steep, talus covered ridges and talus covered faces on the east side of the Silver Star Mountain complex in western Skamania County. The peak is unique in the area due to its pronounced symmetry and also for its striking talus covered slopes falling away some 1,900 vertical feet on the NNE side and some 1,200 feet on the SW side. Accessed by the Chinook Trail the peak isn't too difficult to get to (ed. Probably lying) and well worth the effort for the spectacular views in all directions. Nearly all of the Gorge peaks can be spotted as well as five of our snow-capped volcanoes: St. Helens, Rainier, Adams, Hood and Jefferson. The Chinook band of Native Americans populated this area for millennia and they traveled these hills collecting seasonal berries and hunting game (ed. Probably a lie also). Some of the trails you will travel may very well be the same ones they built and used for many thousands of years. On September 11th, 1902, a huge forest fire started near Carson in the Columbia River Gorge and in just 36 hours, swept in from the east and climbed up and over Silver Star Mt. and most of the surrounding ridges and peaks. In those long-ago days, there was no means or even attempt to battle such a wide spread fire and the result was one of the worst - if not THE worst disaster - to ever befall the area: 38 people were killed, at least 146 families lost their homes and over 370 square miles of forest were burned. Some of the stumps of the fire-killed trees still stand throughout the area. Much of the higher elevation areas have not re-grown a mature forest to this day, leaving large areas for huckleberry fields and offering the opportunity for sweeping vistas of the area from most of the many trails." (edit) Another pic of a Climber attached from that site: caption: "Here is the spot where you get off the Chinook trail to head up Little Baldy ...with the worlds smallest cairn. Watch for the pink and black ribbon on the left side. May 2007" (edit) While people hike it all year round (it has snow in May, say), this site lists Silverstar/Little Baldy "hiking" season (which depends on point of view), as May-Nov. http://www.portlandhikersfieldguide.org/wiki/Silver_Star_via_Bluff_Mountain_Hike Silver Star trail network map added. (it's next to Little Baldy)

Georger, you mentioned: "(3) Snowmman's prolific SEARCHING SKILLS ARE ACTUALLY LIMITED! Snowmman is a joke. I know people who could SEARCH circles around you on a routine basis and they work for minimum wage! " You are correct. Let's take advantage of that. Jerry mentioned sources of data that contradicts our weather information from Ckret. Could you get this person you mentioned to find that data for us? I think Jerry won't provide it. The minimum wage for the state of WA in 2009 is highest in the nation and is $8.55 per hour, per http://www.lni.wa.gov/IPUB/700-102-909.pdf I can afford two hours, which should be sufficient. I can put a $20 in the mail once the worker gets the data? Thanks. Like I said, we need to have this Cooper thing jumpstart the economy. Doing my part.

Yes, we all know this information. In fact most of what's being rehashed has been hashed many times before. It's a bit like a monkey in a dryer. Nothing changes except the monkey just goes round and round. Can't wait for the timer to ding and be done with it. ltdiver Yeah but it's hard to tell, isn't it. Jerry comes on here with a story about the plane being somewhere else, although he won't tell us exactly where, he claims we don't know the weather, the wind, the flight path or anything. Georger acts like Jerry knows stuff. Jerry acts like he knows stuff and seems to want to make us think Himmelsbach has told him secret stuff. I have no idea what people believe, ltdiver. So yeah, I'm stating what I think is obvious, but how the hell can I tell what others think is obvious, anymore??? Sometimes I think this thread is more about the people here, than Cooper.. I guess it is, isn't it.(me included).

I've found a bunch of references to people finding shoes in the woods. More frequent than you would think. This guy (redmond, wa) made a list of stuff he'd find as a kid in the woods by his house, by example. That hunters forum I posted had posts about weird circles of shoes in the woods, or single shoes, also. http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/east_king/red/opinion/26250774.html Among the other booty found in the woods: 1) Shoes. There was usually just one, but we always had hopes that a matching one would show up---or cooler yet, one with a foot still in it. 2) Pocketknives. My brothers seemed to find lots of them, but I never could. I did once find some toenail clippers---not as cool as a full-fledged knife, but still more of a weapon than fingernail clippers. 3) Magazines and books. Most often, there were just a few surviving pages, but my friend Steve once found, intact, what he called a “nudie” magazine. It turned out to be a National Geographic featuring an Amazonian tribe. Not Playboy, but still better than nothing. 4) We’d also find the occasional pack of smokes. We didn’t smoke them, but if they were the kind with filters, we’d remove those and make earplugs out of them.

Okay for March Madness month, I'm going to propose something really difficult. No one can use the word "Duane" or "Weber" in a post. I suspect this will be the most difficult for georger, not Jo. Here's a new thread we can start talking about if people want. There's a long train of thought that can be developed from it, possibly. Or someone can dismiss it quickly, maybe. on page 72 of the original transcripts, (which is page 5 of the attached pdf for easy reference) R6 at the Seattle ARTCC says "Roger sir I lost your transponder". This is at 0454:53, GMT (8:54:53 PST). I've provided enough background already so people should be familiar with the probable gear at Seattle ARTCC? (We could even discuss that more). The timestamp is as interesting as the quote. I think you guys are tired of my long speculative dissertations, so someone else run with this. Georger, you can just call me an asswipe or something. Make it new though.

Shoes! ltdiver Hi ltdiver. Possibly. Is that a 50-50 possibility though? Look at Tina's description. Then look at Schaffner's. What kind of shoes was Cooper wearing? Are both descriptions of equal strength? We believe Tina more for other things. Should we believe her more here? I don't know what Cooper had for shoes. I don't think anyone does? Descriptions of Cooper: Mucklow "W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see." Schaffner "W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."

I discovered another tell. Anyone who has ever called Jo on the telephone, is by definition, an asshole. (edit) I only got two mentions in the prior post. Problem. Correct.

Do not contact me with respect to a copy of these files http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10184558-83.html Also, the Iranians have no direct experience with the vehicle in question. Information has no value, per the experts on this forum.

Yeah, but watch this, ignoring you will. I've learned from the best women. See you!

I agree. I'm not going to say anything about the flight path either. It's better that way. The book? The publisher wants it to be in 3 volumes. I pushed for color pics everywhere. Gonna be great. $200k advance.