snowmman

hmm. I'm off the A-list already! I have the book. It was done with a co-writer who cobbled some of the info from newspaper articles. It is unclear what was written by H. and what was by the co-writer. If you say H. fact-checked it, okay, that's probably true. Are you saying you think there is a reference to a meeting with Scott in that book, that talked about the flight path? I've read the book, I own the book. I didnt' see it. I may have overlooked it. What page? I can verify if I'm told a page. I guess I don't understand why the Norjak book is being brought up. In reference to what?

Okay, for my high school science fair project, I tried putting together a plan for hijacking a Piper Cherokee Arrow to Mexico, from Seatac (KSEA). I want to stay under 10,000 ft at all times. Attached flight path and terrain profile with msl MEA's. (edit) using only Victor airways. Dest. is MMHO airport in Mexico, to avoid some of the mountains in Mexico. I can get a quick hop over to Baja then too. In any case, I've got problems, because they're making me fly thru Reno. (I'm really trying to mimic 305's plans). You can see in my flight/terrain profile I'm not landing at Reno. (I have another flight plan with that. But the Piper still won't have enough fuel even with that stop) But the problem is, everything was fine until they made me cross over to Reno. Then I had to get to 11500 ft. And then leaving Reno was a pain, going South too..Had to go to 11500 ft. Had to go to 12000 ft down near Phoenix. (although that MEA doesn't appear to be strictly terrain-demanded?) Life was good, for my 10,000 ft demand, for a while. I got past Fort Jones (CA) (just barely) at 10,000 ft, to Redding CA. Obviously staying on a path to LA then, Phoenix, Tucson, Mexico would have been better. (edit) in the pic, KMG is a nav thing for Reno. I should have used KRNO for the Reno airport.

I have a little rust colored flag near Dougan Falls at N 45°40.356' x W 122°9.186' (the 2nd rust flag N of it is Mt. St. Helens. Remember it was taller in 1971) I created a flight path (purple) that puts 305 going past it and continuing on over the Columbia. It appears to me, that 305 won't go over Portland then. So Rat wouldn't have seen the lights of Portland. I understand promoting different points of view, but I feel like there's additional information I'm missing about this Dougan Falls theory. I even drew the flight path a little west of Dougan Falls, assuming winds were maybe 220 degrees or so at 10,000 feet. (attached) I even avoided a direct line from KSEA, to avoid running into Mt. St. Helens. A directer line brings you within 5 miles of Mt St. Helens, and brings you over terrain up to 5000 ft in elevation. (edit) added another pic of the same flight path, zoomed out a little bit to show where I started jogging east.

I forgot to add: If you recall I asked Ckret specifically when he was here: Did Scott say EAST OR WEST OF THE FP? Ckret answered: EAST .... I dont know where this comes from! I dont know if it started with Tosaw or where. Its rather confused (I think). But wherever it came from its was real enough for Larry total about it and answer speficially - east. Then you tried to debunk this as myth, and you thought you had, and nobody said much of anything because I dont think any of us knew what to say.... that is the reason it is still alive. (with me at least). OK? Hi Georger, I think you're wrong. 1) The DZ.com search index rebuild, to my eye, means that when we search we correctly get results that reflect any edits to posts, unlike before. So using DZ.com search should be accurate now. 2) When I searched for all posts from ckret with the word "east" there were 5. None of them say anything about Ckret confirming stuff about the flight path being east according to Scott. Please search yourself, in case I'm wrong 3) The closest thing was this speculation from ckret: (early on...I don't know how he modified his thoughts over time) "form the recovery of the money, to me, there is only one option. Cooper jumped further south then what was originally thought to be the most southern jump point and the plane was just a bit further east than what was thought to be the furthest eastern point. This would have put Cooper landing in an area that could have fed into the Columbia and a good reason why he was never found, because he landed in an area out of the search grid. " (edit) another Ckret post using "east" "Since there is nothing that reasonably points to someone planting the money, we can rule out any jump point that could not put Cooper near a tributary. If Cooper jumped over or just south of Orchard he would have been blown north and east several miles. If the farthest south jump point shown on the map I posted is 8:12, then where would the plane be at 8:13, 8:14 and 8:15. Also don't forget you could factor in a flight path .5 mile east of the flight path line from Battleground to Salem. "

"keeps coming up in coversations behind the scene here. " conversations with who? Where did they get it from?

You are joking of course but just in case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper Basically he was a dude who conned an airline into giving him a free jet jump from one of their 727s. He drank some bourbon, got kinda rude and actually demanded that they pay him on top of that. 377 D.B. Cooper? He was just the first of five guys who hijacked commercial passenger jets in '71 and '72 and parachuted out of them with a money ransom. He was not the first to parachute out of a 727; that had already been done. All the other guys survived. At least one of them is alive and out of prison. Would be great to get him on the forum, but I would think he wants to keep his past buried. For his feat, the other guys awarded him the first H-license. H-1. Ever since then, real jumpers have been trying to deny the existence of H licenses, saying they're all whuffos. Cooper also complained a lot about women trying to rob him of his essence. In fact, the similarity to Buck Turgidson first clued the FBI in to his connection to nuclear weapons. Which lead to the discovery of what really happened to Mt. St. Helens. Note that the new flight path to the new DZ crosses Mt. St. Helens. There was a reason it had to be destroyed.

georger said " I keep going back to Scott telling H he thought after reflecting, he was EAST of V23... that brings us to the area Jerry is searching. I think!??? " I thought we buried that as a bullshit misquote of the Norjak book by an writer. (remember the story about another pilot H. told in the Norjak book?) Am I wrong? What's your source for this East of V23 thing? I thought we agreed it was just rumor and the Scott/H meeting never happened.

Shelly said: "As for as the flight path I do remember scott saying that he was a little bit to the east of the flight path" Hi Shelly. This is really important, so forgive me if I sound abrupt or direct here. As far as I've been able to dig up, the stories about people involved in the flight saying things were east or west of the flight path, is all rumor. So: Where exactly did you hear this? or read this? I'd like to run it down, if you can say? It's real interesting that you think Scott said something. Where? When? (edit) I just noticed your comment on winds "The night of the flight the winds at 10,000 ft were very strong even the ground winds were very high" I've posted a lot of stuff about surface winds and winds at 10,000' around PDX. Where did you get your information about winds? Thanks. -snowmman

Hi nitro, yes I did check it out when you mentioned it. The photos were lower resolution (fuzzier) than of what I had seen in google. The server was a little slow, but I didn't see anything interesting around the Fazio's in my little look, so I didn't grab any images. I only looked at the Fazio's at that point in time. I'm not really sure where else we should be looking. Georger, even, implied that we can narrow down a DZ (when I said there wasn't enough info for anyone to say they knew where the DZ was)..and now we're revisiting DZ's east of the flight path. So I'm not sure what we might be looking for?

Sluggo knew this from looking at the 1971 sectional, I guess. I've been mulling over Sluggo's theories about how the 10k and Mexico demand, basically specified a route. It is pretty interesting playing with this flight planning software. It seems like the crew wanting to go to Reno to refuel really made the 10k ceiling hard to achieve. You can get from Seatac (KSEA) to LA (KLAX) cruising at 9000 ft in a Piper Cherokee, evidently. (need fuel though) But you definitely wouldn't go out East over the mountains to Yakima, WA. If they went there, Cooper would definitely have been lost. Here's a pic of a flight path from KSEA to KLAX. The highest point is 5000 ft. ish, but that's down near LA. You can see you'd take V495 nowadays...just E of V23 (the part before PDX) But it's hard to argue with Sluggo's assertion that the Mexico+10,000 ft demand basically set a flight path. Why didn't they go to SFO? doesn't make sense to me that they went to Reno. (edit) Oh note that the "brown spot" that was an obstruction, towards the E that I mentioned before, is Mt. St. Helens. It was ~9700 ft in 1971. It's less now. (S.A. event)

In this Voyager Flight Software system, it's pretty cool because it downloads current weather etc also. I notice the winds aloft at PDX right now (I guess 4 hr period?) are 54 knots at 210 degrees, -14C. (edit) added: 44 knots, 210 deg. at 9000 ft, -8C 40 knots, 210 deg. at 6000 ft, -3C 35 knots, 180 deg. at 3000 ft 11/24/71 was -7C at 10k ft? so I guess similar? let's look at current surface conditions at PDX from http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/current/KPDX.html Seems like a DBC nite, roughly, on the ground? So 40-50 knot winds at 10,000 ft on 10/24/71 might not be out of the question? Current PDX conditions (surface): 2/24/09 10:53 PST Wind from the SSE (160 degrees) at 7 MPH (6 KT) Visibility 10 mile(s) Sky conditions overcast Weather Light rain Precipitation last hour 0.07 inches Temperature 46.0 F (7.8 C) Dew Point 41.0 F (5.0 C) Relative Humidity 82% Pressure (altimeter) 29.75 in. Hg (1007 hPa) Maximum and Minimum Temperatures Max F (C) Mini F (C) 46.9 (8.3) 41.0 (5.0) In the 6 hours preceding 51.1 (10.6) 41.0 (5.0) In the 24 hours preceding (edit) This shows some more surface info, including cloud levels and gusts. Report generated at 2/23/2009 11:53 PM Winds: From 190 degrees at 16 Kts gusting to 24 Kts; Visibility: Unlimited; Sky conditions: Scattered clouds at 3000 Ft AGL, Broken clouds at 3500 Ft AGL, Overcast at 4500 Ft AGL; Weather: Light rain; Temperature/dew point: 9/4C; Altimeter setting: 29.77 Hg

I may be missing something basic. But in looking at flight paths, and the terrain in the area 20 miles E of V23, I just can't see what people are proposing. I've attached some pics to illustrate. Downloaded and installed the Voyager Flight Software System from Seattle Avionics. I plug in stuff, and they give me flight paths and show other data. I said I wanted to fly my Bonanza from KSEA to KPDX V495 is immediately E of V23, which we know and love. For 305 to be over in the woods E, it has to have strayed over past V495? And there are no flight paths E of V495, coming from the Seattle way.. And the brown mountain to the N of the "3" (in the first pic) shows as elevation 6300 ft, Class E airspace, 7500 ft floor. Lat/Long: N 46°12.49' x W 122°11.74' If 305 was flying at 10,000 ft, it would have been kind of dangerous to be straying over that way? (Way East of V23) This is ignoring the high altitude stuff like J65. Can someone explain just what the theory is? (p.s. yes I know nothing about planes or flying etc. ) Note all three have V495 highlighted. The last is rotated, as if flying from bottom to top. (S is top) (edit) added 4th around pdx (S is bottom again). I had switched views from terrain (although the red was cool for making it more obvious where the water is)

wow. Just when I thought the plot line couldn't get any stranger, it does. This definitely has to be in the movie. Hopefully the dog was dug up in the middle of the night, with rain dripping off the crushed, wide-brimmed felt hats of the diggers. We asked a couple times about Symba. Sluggo even gave some guesses about a bank name. I never would have guessed it was a piggy bank, I mean a dog bank that looked like your old dog. Jo: I don't have any good advice economy-wise. It's not a question of trying to figure out how to be an individual survivalist though...I would encourage you to go do some volunteer work. Maybe at the local SPCA? Me: I've been reading up on planting potatoes. Didn't realize they could be a spring crop. And in the deflationary spiral we're in, gear is getting cheap. I just got a 320GB hard drive for $50. Over 1TB of storage at snowmman's all told. Amazing.

I dont have the faintest idea what you're talking about. I'm assuming "Symba" is a reference to The Symba Bill. Supposedly there was a $20 bill that Jo got rid of that was found in a a bank called Symba? Or something like that? I think the $20 was radioactive, which is why it was disposed of. That's all I know. Jo said on 8/15/07: I do believe he kept one of the bills and that I inadvertantly disposed of it - WHY!? - because I didn't know who Dan Cooper was and it was just an old $20 bill in a bank called "Symba".

says page cannot be displayed - ??? Must be something only you and Jo know about. Yes, just me and Jo. http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/gear/6806/ scenario: A virtual fistfight. Opponent provides a link to something you don't understand. That's just a set of numbers. You click on it. It appears nothing happened. But did nothing happen? How would you know? You got to ask yourself, is your machine in as good a state as it was before you clicked on the number? If you think "yes", why would you think that? In the real world, we don't harass each other because of the threat of a fist fight. See, we don't really need Quade to maintain civility.

Call his information BS if you want, but let's keep the personal name calling out of this ok? Simmer down. I agree. He can call my post labelled 11/6/71 BS, but that would be a waste of time. If there is anything in that post that is not factually correct, I'll eat crow. As far as I can tell, it's all true. I provided source url's that should be sufficient to verify, but further Googling on any of it reveals plenty. If what georger meant, was that we should discuss this claim of where Duane was on 11/24/71 and who knew, then sure. But I'm not sure anyone is claiming Duane was involved, other than Jo, so maybe that wouldn't be interesting? But sure, let's discuss. I'm interested.

"Dont take your quarrel with Ckret out on me you lowlife." 127.0.0.1

Yay! finally I get georger to try to attack me instead of Jo. Although it's pretty weak, just trying to put words in my mouth. Hey, like Jo does! :) I've been getting a lot of pressure to talk about Cannikin, and the probability that Cooper was protesting it. On November 6, 1971 Cannikin was detonated as the thirteenth test of the Operation Grommet (1971-1972) underground nuclear test series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amchitka_Island Announced yield was "less than five" megatons – the largest underground nuclear test in US history. The test was at Amchitka, the outermost of the Aleutian Islands off Alaska. Location : 51.46961 179.10335 http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.46961,179.10335&spn=0.3,0.3&t=h&q=51.46961,179.10335 In July 1971, a group called the Committee for Nuclear Responsibility filed suit against the AEC, asking the court to stop the test. The suit was unsuccessful, with the Supreme Court denying the injunction by 4 votes to 3, and Richard Nixon personally authorized the $200 million test, in spite of objections from Japan, Peru, and Sweden. The Greenpeace tried to sail from Vancouver, BC to Amchitka to protest. The Greenpeace—the original name of which was The Phyllis Cormack, an 80-foot fishing vessel named after skipper John Cormack’s wife—had been chartered by the Don’t Make a Wave Committee. The Don't Make a Wave committee was formed in Oct. 1969 in Vancouver, BC. (not Vancouver, WA). It was during meetings in 1970, that the name "Greenpeace" was formed, The Greenpeace organization was formed from this group, in 1972. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Make_a_Wave_Committee (edit) video of Cannikin detonation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp6aZIhHiRE nice shots.

NE of Dougan Falls, if you try to get to the flight path as short as possible (go W), then it's about 20 miles. You know we can throw the flight path away, but don't the transcripts still create time&place boundaries that the flight has to meet around Portland? I don't see how 305 could be 20 miles east of the flight path (PDX) and make the times in the transcript? Theories on this? Sluggo could articulate rough time periods that the plane has to be in certain rough areas. Maybe it could be stretched to make it work. an extra 20 miles at 200mph takes 6 minutes. If the plan was looping out that way, it might not be extra mileage considering a straightish line from Seatac. But they were reasonably close to PDX when they got some comms right? If they were 20 miles E, why did they get the PDX comms (and how come the ATC didn't say "Where the F* are you?")

Hi Shelly, Welcome to the forum. I've never heard this story of Duane and Pitt/Cruise. Was that a joke? (sometimes its hard to tell on this thread! :) ) I know Jo has said Duane maybe sang in some bar. Is that what you're referring to? When Sluggo started talking about Jerry, I wondered whether Jerry might just be another kook, but to be fair, I've not heard anything from or about Jerry that would seem reliable. So I can't know. It's all been second hand info about Jerry. So if you can fill in some background on what Jerry's been up to over the years, that would be great. All we have is what's been written up in newspapers and magazines and stuff Jo and Sluggo have said.

My information is so secret, and I am so reclusive, that I only post on this thread at DZ.com.

extremely cute! some smile! Having to go back to work must be tough.

georger seemed to imply that i go OT sometimes. However, Note that 1969912's avatar is a nuke blast (mushroom cloud).

I just figured it out. georger is Stephen Fowler. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/4743304/US-Wife-Swap-Briton-becomes-hate-figure-after-calling-woman-redneck.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhykAAg86bs&feature=related

Jo said: "Has no one ever found it ODD, a female truck driver, who came out of no where was able to zero in on the two sites with only a brief description and told me exactly where to find them? The woman gave me a name and address that did not exist. WHY?" from http://www.careersingear.com/trucking-news/Truck_Driving_Jobs/Women_In_Trucking "According to research conducted by Global Insight for the American Trucking Association in 2005, the percentage of women in the “truck transportation industry in 2000” was 4.6 percent, based on US census figures. This same report shows that the percentage of women in the truck driver workforce has hovered around five percent since 1994, peaking in 1997 with just over five percent. They are also projecting that only 4.1 percent of the driver workforce will be female in 2014. If you were to use the US Government data for statistical information regarding women in transportation, the numbers vary between segments of the industry. The 2006 US Table of Employed Civilians from the January 2007 US Bureau of Labor Statistics by industry show that 5.2 percent of “drivers, sales workers and truck drivers” are female. (This is in comparison to 6.1 percent of women employed by “refuse and recyclable material collectors!”) The Canadian Trucking Human Resources Council has estimated that the percentage of women in trucking in Canada is only three percent, much lower than its neighbors to the south." Not sure if there is a local skewing to US avg. in WA. I've heard this problem of women giving men a name and address that doesn't exist is common. I don't know why women do it?