snowmman

georger: in your "rail line" photo, you've mislabelled the fazio sand operations. Your label is in farmland (the reclaimed Shilapoo Lake area) the sand operation is N and S of the buildings, which are West of NW Lower River Road. (basically right next to the Columbia)

Just seeing if there's anything interesting with this new historical GE imagery they just released. Here's the area just N of the money find. I was interested in the rate of change of the shoreline. The pictures are taken at various water levels, so that changes things. But there's an inlet N of Tena Bar, that seems to get sand deposits. In general though, the river doesn't change quickly? I guess this is too much info in 300KB. but it gives a general feel. you can save it and zoom in, and there's still reasonable resolution. (the GE has better)

georger said: "The question for Tina Bar has always been its flow position. How does debris get there. Randomly? Your white line route seems simplistic to me." geoger: there is basic intro textbook stuff that describes how rivers behave. I've read one discussion where they break river behavior into it's upper, middle and lower courses. We're dealing with the middle courses of the Columbia? tending toward lower course behavior. Two pics attached go with this description. Also, an animation is here: http://www.cleo.net.uk/resources/displayframe.php?src=309/consultants_resources%2F_files%2Fmeander4.swf (edit) Isn't this animation showing something similar to what's happending after the curve in the Columbia, to Tena Bar (like I showed) "One of the most distinctive features of the river in the middle course is its increased sinuousity. Unlike the relatively straight channel of the upper course, in the middle course there are many meanders (bends) in the river." "Meanders form due to the greater volume of water carried by the river in lowland areas which results in lateral (sideways) erosion being more dominant than vertical erosion, causing the channel to cut into its banks forming meanders. 1. Water flows fastest on the outer bend of the river where the channel is deeper and there is less friction. This is due to water being flung towards the outer bend as it flows around the meander, this causes greater erosion which deepens the channel, in turn the reduction in friction and increase in energy results in greater erosion. This lateral erosion results in undercutting of the river bank and the formation of a steep sided river cliff. 2. In contrast, on the inner bend water is slow flowing, due to it being a low energy zone, deposition occurs resulting in a shallower channel. This increased friction further reduces the velocity (thus further reducing energy), encouraging further deposition. Over time a small beach of material builds up on the inner bend; this is called a slip-off slope. Remember - a meander is asymmetrical in cross-section (see diagram). It is deeper on the outer bend (due to greater erosion) and shallower on the inside bend (an area of deposition)."

that photo with my white line in the river, is the most recent imagery in Google Earth. It's dated July 2005. Note I'm doing a little compression to fit in the 300KB limit here, but I don't think it's noticeable from the original. It's pretty good. You can see people camping on the shore of Caterpillar Island, with tents and boats. I've been looking at shore debris. Further North on the Vancouver side, it seems like wherever there's sand, there's an even distribution of logs/brush from the river, on the sand. (I've posted on that before) I thought the Ckret photos were labelled "CENPP" which I thought was an acronym for The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Portland District. I thought those photos were aerial, not satellite? Don't know if satellite would have been that good in '70s? and if available to Corps of Engineers? (edit) On the logs, you can ask "where did that log come from, and why did it beach there?" (edit) While the latest TBar imagery is from 2005, I notice that elsewhere in the US there is imagery as recent as July 2007. Don't know what the most recent area/data is.

Okay nitrochute, this is zeroing in on the blue object and cars by the apparent money find location (I was using the circled area in the photos provided by the FBI, to pinpoint the probable money find area. I should revisit that for accuracy) In any case, two images in this pic. Top shows many obvious cars parked at the Y. (fishermen?), from July 26, 2005. Bottom from Sept 17, 2002 shows no cars, and the blue object. However, here, the blue object is not "in the water" like the last pic I showed. It's up on the beach (i.e. the waterline is low in this pic. Maybe it's one of those big blue canopy things? (edit) I added another pic that has the May 2002 image too, since it's the clearest of the blue thing. But cars are fewer (some on the right?)

Scrolling thru the historical images now available on GE, I noticed in May 2002 there were some objects on the beach near the money find location. To the N (left in photo) is a blue object. Maybe a beached boat of some kind. There are some cars? by the trees near the money find. Just interesting if it suggests that point there, where the road to the Fazio buildings intersects a shore road (gravel? dirt?) is where fisherman might drive to. It's just past the place in the 2005 photo where it appears the gate is?

Since I downloaded the latest GE, I figured I'd post some pics. Georger likes cows, so there's some on that. I id'ed some possible things that I wasn't clear on before in the area. And I have a river flow possibility that suggests a location on the other side of the river where stuff may have landed on shore (cooper?), theorizing about how river flows work when the river meanders. There is imagery from 1990 but it's b/w and fuzzy, so not including it, because no extra value 1) Fazio Sept 17 2002. Shows cows in South yard (picture right because E is top of picture) near the money find. Also note what I think is a cow feeding station. 2) Here's a picture of another cow feeding station farther N on the Fazio property. It looks identical to the one I labelled in 1) 3) This image from May 2002 is only slightly before the 1) photo, but it appears to show runoff collected W of that cow yard (the white "froth?"...) I've labelled my supposition. It's not "frothy" in other pics. 4) The July 26 2005 pic is interesting because I think it shows vehicles? on the beach, S of the money find, by the red roofed building there. I think these vehicles? aren't all there in other pics. 5) This July 2005 is the best modern pic. It's not dated beyond "July". What's interesting is that comparing it to the July 26 2005 pic, you can see there is at least one vehicle? on the beach by the red roofed building, that's not in this pic. 6) The white line with red points in this pic is me speculating about river flow, suggesting a point on the opposite shore that might have been worth searching in 1980. There are some place names in the river that come up (blue) from google earth that might be good for reference. You can see the dry Shilapoo Lake labelled, on the Fazio property. (edit) some of my placemarks look like they're not on target, that's because I put them on one year's imagery, and cycled thru without changing their position. The google imagery skews slightly from 1990 to 2005. The July 2005 pic was my reference point for all.

*** The Duane sailor picture shows (to my eye) very prominent protruding ear structure. Kids with ears like that were teased and called DUMBO, the Disney cartoon elephant who flew by flapping his ears. I don't see such ears in the Cooper FBI sketches. Do ears like this on a a 16 year old youth tuck in more flush with the head as he ages? Georger? 377 I guess I don't understand what all the mystery is about. Yeah it could be someone else. Jo hasn't said why she thinks it's Duane. But Jo already said Duane was kicked out of the Navy for bad conduct and then went to the Army, Camp Sibert. Just noticed that Duane's brother was named John? Any other brothers? Why is Jo trying to create a mystery about the hat? The pictures I posted make it look like it likely is a USN sailor's winter dress blues..newly issued.

I thought at first the Duane outfit might be a costume, because of the lack of shoulder insignia. But I found some pictures that match the hat. It appears to be 1941 or 1942 issue USN, winter dress blues. The one stripe on the sleeve might indicate the lowest possible rank? The neckerchief and collar seem odd compare to other photos. I've noticed that the hats seemed to be bent down on the sides for the more experienced looking sailors. since Duane's hat is flat, maybe he just enlisted? (edit) actually: the pic labelled "USN probably 1942" which is the cover a book covering USN uniforms up to 1942, looks like it has the one shoulder bar like Duane's photo. So maybe that's a good match (although the photo is small. maybe 3 bars on the sleeve means 3rd class? (in the attached photos) That one gold? white? trim on one shoulder is odd. Could it be a costume? It does seem 1942 era though. Pics attached of real USN 1941-42 that sort of match (edit) a 320 pp. book was just published in 2007 that would be exactly what you want Jo. http://books.google.com/books?id=VvFBGQAACAAj There are some used copies of the book for $50 at amazon http://www.amazon.com/U-s-Uniforms-Insignia-1940-1942-World/dp/0764325833/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233655798&sr=8-1

georger said: "The reason I answered this is because I had Oppy as a professor at the U of C in the summer of 1961. " Interesting info georger, thanks. See I knew Oppenheimer was on-topic for the thread, as well as nukes and peanut allergies. I'm more on-topic than Jo, in terms of thread participants' interests/backgrounds. on US current capabilities, 8/07 per http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Wpngall.html "At the beginning of 2007 the U.S. nuclear arsenal was composed of eight types of nuclear warheads (in thirteen variant mods) that are operationally deployed, with an estimated count of 5,736 active stockpile warheads." "The total number of warheads of all levels of readiness stands at 9,962 warheads." "The total megatonnage of the deployed nuclear arsenal is about 1,430 Mt... for the entire active arsenal it is 2,330 Mt. The all-time high point in explosive yield was in 1960 when the U.S. held 20,491 Mt in its stockpile." "The United States has produced about 70,000 nuclear weapons of 72 major types since their invention." Robert Palmer knew: She's so fine, there's no telling where the money went She's all mine, there's no other way to go. Her methods are inscrutable, the proof is irrefutable (Um-Um), She's so completely kissable, (HUH), our lives are indivisible (yea-yeah). She's a craze you'll endorse, she's a powerful force, You're obliged to conform, when there's no other course. She used to look good to me but now I find her... Simply irresistible...Simply irresistible. (edit) per http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/publications1/USStockpile2007-2012.pdf estimated reductions to 5032 by 2012. does that matter?

Okay, this pic I tried to be a little artistic. This GE has the ability to emulate sun/dark depending on time of day. They create shadows based on where the sun is, and ground feature elevations. (also: hey this new GE has the ability to look at imagery back as far as they go. They have black and white stuff from 1990 around Vancouver and Tena's Bar, but I didn't see anything interesting..other than that I NEVER saw those 1974 plumes (which I think are dredge spoils) in the sand at Tena's Bar, at any time from 1990 to 2007. Also there's an inlet in 1990, that gets covered with sand) The attached picture, is as if Cooper is standing on the back stairs, just as the plane hits the Columbia. The tail is pointing towards the blue line of the flight path they took. I-205 is there, but it wasn't in 1971 (I labelled that) What's cool, is you can see Mt St. Helens, and Mt. Adams in the background. You're at approximately 10,000 ft. I didn't realize Mt. Adams would look so big from there. They both may have been above the cloud level. Don't know if there was any year round snow on 11/24/71 that might have glistened in the moonlight. But you'd see the headlights on the roads shown. The glow from Vancouver isn't shown. Time to jump! now! It's interesting how, looking backwards, there aren't very many reference points. I think it helps reinforce that seeing Vancouver might have been a strong Go! signal. We've had this view before, but this is an approximation of dark/light around 5pm. (I didn't go later, because I wanted to see the ground in the pic) (edit) Mt. Adams is over 12,000 ft. Mt Helens is 8363 ft. now. It was 9677 feet before South Africa dropped a nuclear weapon on it on May 18,1980, shortly after the Indian Ocean test. That accounts for the 6th weapon, although the location of the 5th is still undetermined.

Okay I did another one at 6400 ft, with smaller region. I did the flying manually this time, a little fast...just one minute to cover the 2010 to 20:18 flight path http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-hzsZgUSck (edit) woops sorry about the typo on the link. okay now.

do you have Google Earth installed, with a decent speed web connection? If so, I'll post the kml. The resolution is VASTLY improved with that. (if you do the flyby a couple times, then it's smooth since all the data gets cached on your machine, assuming, your PC ain't too old. I suppose I could upload a hi-res vid somewhere. But maybe I just need to change the point-of-view to have less image. (so better resolution).

1) First pic: Richard Nixon practicing PLF's. The rumor is that he heard about the successful jump Cooper had done from the 727, and wanted South Africa to let him try the jump also. He wanted to be the first US president to static line a 727. The operation was scrubbed only when Elvis refused to do it with him. 2) Supposedly "Dan Cooper" was obsessed with Robert Oppenheimer, and had plastic surgery to change his facial appearance to look like Oppenheimer. When 305 landed in Reno, this second picture was found taped up on the aft bulkhead, in place of the placard 3) Hanford Engineer Works, in Richland, WA, was one of the 14 bases of operation for the Manhattan Project. It was equal to Los Alamos and Oak Ridge in importance. Apparently "Dan Cooper" worked at the Hanford Engineer Works while in college. He felt he missed out on the real action, leading to his single-mindedness in South Africa. Most of Dan's experience with the Columbia River was from his time at Hanford.

couple of things. Google Earth has a new release. I'd swear I get more detail now when I fly around the Fazio's. But the data is from July 2005, which doesn't seem all that new. So maybe it's just they tweaked it up a bit. In any case, I did two things today I wanted to try 1) a flyby at 10,000 ft, with 45 degree view down to the ground, looking in the direction of travel. From 2012 to 2018, flying about twice the speed of Flight 305 (rough estimate). The blue line is at 1640 ft. altitude so it stays above the terrain. 2) another flyby, at lower altitude, from the Columbia crossing, to the money find location. 3) I could post the kmls if anyone here has GE installed. you just click on the .kml and GE opens and does the flyby. The "possible drift" one is interesting cause we've not stared at that as much. I made a movie of these flybys, uploaded the flight path one to Youtube. The resolution sucks on Youtube. Too much info in the images. But it may be useful for people who don't fire up Google Earth. There was a recent comment here about DB jumping into wilderness, which I thought was odd after all our discussions. Maybe I need to redo it with a smaller video region, so there's less information in the picture. I didn't bother annotating, although sluggo's ticks are there, and the straight line flight path that connects them. You can see I'm a little bit wobbly on the stick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmAcKZYgUak&feature=channel_page

orange1 mentioned: "(Skydiving fact: when jumping at Skydive Cape Town, you can see our local nuclear power station from the air and it is in the background of many photos. The odd wayward - really wayward - skydiver has in fact landed in the grounds, to be met by a very frosty reception.) " see that's the problem with all these things they tell us about security for this and that. It's bogus..can't be made ironclad. When push comes to shove, if the security policies are real, you have to have people shoot down skydivers that land on the White House, or in a nuclear facility. And that doesn't happen. Yes SA is the only sane country in the world. Unilaterally threw away it's weapons. Wouldn't it be great if the US did that. It's the only sane policy. If I was in charge of nuclear safety programmes, that's what I would do. Having nuclear weapons does nothing for a country. Hell it's probably invevitable that someone's going to eventually get hit with a kiloton level weapon for some weird reason, and the only sane thing then is no retaliation anyhow. The reason the guys got to build 15 megaton weapons was always just because it was fun and they were able to keep it secret. There was never any sane reason. Still no sane reason. Me? I'd say go ahead Iran, build your nukes. So what. They're going to drop them on Israel? No way.

In 1974, Sluggo, 377 and our "Dan Cooper" worked on a project to develop nuclear weapons in South Africa. The initial funding and research started in 1971, with the proceeds from the Cooper hijack. This was transferred to Carl De Wet and JW de Villiers on Dec 1, 1971. At that time, only 377, Sluggo, and "Dan Cooper" worked in the weapons development program. The total cost of the program grew, totalling approximately $300 million in '95 dollars. This was funded with gold from secret mines in Johnannesburg. The uranium was taken from the same mines. A Boeing 727, had been purchased from the US early in 1971, with a modified aft stair. This same 727 eventually was the delivery vehicle used for a successful 3-5 kiloton test over the Indian Ocean in September 1979. "Dan Cooper" know about the aft stairs capability because of this, although the main reason for the hijack was getting the seed money. "Dan" never told the rest of the team where the money came from. The appearance of the money, to everyone, signalled South African government approval (funding), and so people went ahead with the plan. "Dan" also implied there was tacit U.S. approval, thru CIA channels, because the money was US dollars. This was Dan's secret way to get around the bureaucracies. He knew that if the program got started, it wouldn't end till a successful weapon was developed. The 727 was used in the September 1974 test over the Indian Ocean to help disguise the test. While US scientists gathered enough data to confirm the nuclear explosion, there was enough fuzziness for plausible deniablity by political leaders of the time. The science said otherwise: http://library.lanl.gov/cgi-bin/getfile?00313730.pdf Four (supposedly) nuclear weapons were built, but all were destroyed and all documentation destroyed from 1992 to 1994. But it doesn't end there. It has only recently that it's been discovered that there were actually five weapons built. Since all records were destroyed by 1994, there are only three people still alive that know for sure. 377 and Sluggo are two of them. Orange1, is apparently a member of the National Intelligence Agency, which was formed in 1994 after all documents related to the nuclear weapons were destroyed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Agency The story I heard, was that Orange1 was researching some economic reports of that era, and found an unpaid bill relating to some tungsten in 1979. The amounts in the bill correlated to 5 weapons. Further information was developed after that. I cannot comment on the affiliations of Ckret and georger, as officially "I don't know". I was hired by the NIA as part of the subsequent search for the Fifth Weapon. I first infiltrated DZ.com in 2000. I've attached a snap of the site from back then (redacted) that was part of my first report to the NIA. Sluggo was blackballed from the nuclear industry when suspicions first arose. It was recently decided that it would be more controllable to "bring him inside" again before Jo Weber disclosed Duane's possible involvement. Note: It's Feb 1. January's over!

Hi Jo. I know this is still be nice to Jo month, but I'm going to just post like I would to someone who actually had a faint memory of an object and wanted help identifying it. Rather than just going on and on for almost a year about your memory and trying to describe it in text, just accept that you aren't going to be able to identify it thru your current process. Your current process is: -random text descriptions -hoping to trigger others to send you photos -you give thumbs up or down on the photos. Instead, I'd suggest: -you sketch with pencil, whatever memory you have, and annotate -scan it and post it. -we'll ask questions on the sketch and annotate ourselves -you do a new sketch -repeat. after that process is done, and we all agree it represents the best documentation of your current memory, then we go off and find images See, what's happened is that your process has led to images that have corrrupted your memory. I know you don't like hearing that your investigative processes are not world-class, i.e. don't represent the best possible processes given today's technology and people and information availability, but it's just that simple. Others would have done a better job at finding that piece of hardware that you remembered. There is always the issue about protecting information from the conspiracy. Which may be valid. But you can weigh the pros and cons.

:) so, I guess you're saying that it's not possible I could have researched the nut allergy? The best plan is always when you do something that others think is inconceivable. i.e. doing a Cooper. :)

Then you can all be billionaires. Lol. I think there's also a scene on the 727 where Orange1 is handing out the rigs she brought...and when she gets to 377, he peeks inside the reserve, and says "I ain't pulling no pink reserve" and tosses it aside onto seat 18E. Later an FBI agent is examining the crashed 727 (it crash landed after it was left on autopilot after everyone jumped).. Agent C. mutters "Look, one of them left a reserve here. Definitely whuffo" Agent D. says "Maybe. But look it's the same color as the Cooper reserve. Don't you think he left it as a message?" Later, on a thread at DZ.com, citizen investigators helping the FBI, speculate that the reserve was left behind because it had peanut butter stains on the container, and one of the jumpers must have been allergic to peanuts.

Cooper is a hard act to follow. How do you top his caper in today's world? It was right out of a James Bond movie, but Bond was a criminal this time. What do you do now? Buy one of those rich guy astronaut positions and then hijack the International Space Station for ransom? Escape in a MIR pod that is delivered and docked on your command? 377 Okay, so who says the plan has to be all nailed down before you start to execute? It's better not to, that way the FBI will say you're ADD. What I know so far: -somehow it involves 377 talking up some good story to people that gets us on a 727 parked out in the Arizona desert. I don't know what 377 says, but that's his problem. Not sure who's the guy that will know how to fly it, but somehow we get it in the air. We somehow fly it to Africa without getting shot down, and solving the refuel problem. Given those pics I posted, I think we fly the extra fuel inside the 727, and refuel ourselves in mid-air, but have to work out the details. We then land on a dirt strip somewhere in Africa. Near some tourist sites, because Orange1 has identified some cool things to see. Somehow Orange1 is ready on the dirt strip with, I think, gold bars, which I'm not sure where they come from, but they get loaded on the plane. That's as far as I've gotten. I think the ending includes kicking out palletized gold bars with parachutes, thru the aft door, and someone riding the last pallet a la Dr. Strangelove. And somehow we get it all on tape. I think the actual money gets made from the video, not the crime.

here's a picture of a steel oval carabiner, i.e. tenth mountain division army surplus, '50s-'60s. ruler by side for estimating size. Aluminum was in use by then for climbing, but there were still plenty of steel surplus ones, especially if we're talking about someone like Duane. modified shapes in '60s-'70s straightened out the oval (then) for extra strength...up to looking like a D. But they were generally symmetric top and bottom. roughly 4"x2", 3/8" rod, spring loaded gate. Steel might weigh 1/2 lb. (aluminum almost all now). There were some that were pear shaped with threaded gates, but less common. You general don't want metal to metal when you use a carabiner, to avoid torqueing twists. (like a reserve hook to a carabiner would be a bad idea) They are used in many sports, as well as industrial settings (tree arborists, window cleaning, tower work).

I've been musing over Obama's call to action. When you look at the return on investment for the Cooper event, it has been a net economic gain. Even just counting the entertainment industry (books, movies). The effect on the aviation industry was not negative, since it was required anyhow. You could say at any point in the last 37 years, inf fact, that the airline industry should have spent more on security and been right, but hindsight is 20/20, and you can't spend money mitigating all risks and have a growing economy. Sure there's the little matter of laws, and threatening harm to individuals etc. But that's not been outside of normal business practices in the US, or real outcomes. So: We need more Coopers. All positives. No negatives.

I thought we agreed that there were D rings on the Pioneer rig, although we can't seem to identify the model. just "type II" The random experiment was done. Ask for two rigs, and Cooper got a 50% hit rate on D rings. What do people think would happen if we did the experiment a bunch of times? Would it depend where you did it? I figure by asking for chest + back, you increase the odds pretty dramatically of getting d-rings.

happythoughts said: why so worried about "narrowing"? Are you saying it doesn't exclude anyone? I think it does exclude some people. Why are you looking for big things? there are none. What you you have done, happythoughts, if the money arrived in the cloth bag? Would you have had a knife in your pocket? Would you have cut the chute lines and tied it around the money bag? Would you have demanded the original knapsack request, or adjusted because you knew you were running out of time? Would you have done what Cooper did or something different? I guess I don't understand your comments. (the intent)