Sluggo_Monster

Best Sarah Palin voice: “Ya know… sometimes people do things that (looking at the palm of her left hand) are just not helpful! And… sometimes they do things that are (looking at the palm of her right hand) just plain mean. Here is a story, it may be true, it may not… but it’s pretty close: Ray Lauer gets a phone call from a spooky woman in Florida who after 14 years still insists that her deceased husband was DB Cooper. Because Agent Lauer was chasing terrorist, working on a couple of Civil-Rights cases, and trying to reduce violent crimes at government facilities, he decides he just doesn’t have time for her and chooses not to return the call. So, a kind-hearted “representative of the illustrious FBI” feels sorry for her and returns the call. From this, Jo makes one of her logical quantum leaps and assumes that “the representative of the illustrious FBI” is still actively investigating NORJAK. Because she gets mad at Sluggo, she decides to take it out on “the representative of the illustrious FBI” by calling Ray Lauer (who doesn’t take her calls) and complaining because “the representative of the illustrious FBI” was (and I quote) “taking FBI business outside of the office and to a private citizen”. So, that’s the thanks he gets for being kind-hearted and not just ignoring her! Now ain’t that some shit! Would this make a great sitcom or what? So, is Jo confused about the way the world works, or just mean? [I could make this question a CAVA.]

SKYWHUFFO and All, Good post, I feel like I may have contributed to the diversion, but, in my defense, I did it with the “greater good” in mind, specifically forcing Jo to “Put-up-or-shut-up.” Her shutting up would ultimately reduce the carping and griping and let us focus on the Community Assessed Valid Assumptions (CAVAs). So, enough of that let’s get back to CAVAs. The CAVA process (as I envisioned it) requires a great deal of patience and the willingness to really run the issue “to the ground,” I would caution about corrupting the process by impatience, therefore, switching to a new CAVA issue seems to me to be premature, but as previously stated, I envisioned a process that was by the community and for the community. So, we’ll move to a new one. However, I would like for us to put the old one to bed. I would think that at this time Parliamentary procedure would dictate that I ask for a motion to close CAVA #1 and take a vote. Based on what I said above, I’ll just go straight to the vote. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration): Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please make a post with your vote on CAVA #1. Your vote should be in the form of: I agree, I disagree, or I am undecided (please include a stated reason , if undecided). Please limit the vote content to CAVA #1. This will make it easier to understand exactly where you stand. And now, CAVA #2. Be aware that I feel sticking with issues in chronological order is a more logical approach. However, I want the process to work more than I want to “do it my way.” So, here it is: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Issue #2 (for CAVA consideration): Dan Cooper inspected the parachute (he used) and located the packer’s card. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Notice that inspecting the panels, etc. is not included. I think the CAVAs should be one issue at a time. This takes more time, but it will add clarity, and prevent people from voting in a particular way because the think one major part of a multi-part issue is true, false, or indeterminate. So, let’s see “Vote Postings” please for CAVA #1 and begin discussion for CAVA #2. PS: The “V” and the “C” are adjacent on the QWERTY keyboard, do you know how easy that makes it to turn CAVA into CACA while typing? Maybe God is trying to tell me something.

georger,

Jerry, Thank you so much for the advice. Your advice and Billy Graham’s sermons have done me a world of good.

Next tim I'll mark it (sic). I wondered if you'd notice the color. That's it, from now on all Orange1 quotes must be in the color orange! (Or is it colour?) Factoid: There is no English word that rhymes with ORANGE. da Slug Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Bruce Smith said: I still stand by, why would a ticket counter person or stewardesses have a reason to remember Cooper before he handed that note off. AND Orange1 Said: I've asked this question before too. It seems odd to me that the ticket counter person would have remembered anything about an unremarkable person at the counter. The stews I can understand, because they would have had opportunbity to observe him afterwards too. We discussed some of this surrounding Post #10310 May 30, 2009, 9:44 PM Post # 10310. In 1981 the ticket agent didn’t mention a paper sack, or at least it wasn’t reported that he mentioned it. However he DID mention the briefcase. Of course the FBI’s “Headline Archives” don’t mention a paper sack either, so I have no idea how to run this to the ground. I have attached two articles (they are actually the same release) from 11/26/1981 with an interview with Hal Williams. One (with the photo) is from The Oregonian and the other is from the Galveston (TX) Daily News. Not that they add anything. But maybe someone will see something I don’t. Skyjack71 Said: Ticket Agents name was Dennis Lysne… Gate Agent Howell Williams The ticket agent was Harold (Hal) Williams, I have never known the “gate agent’s” name. Since you got the ticket agent’s name wrong, I’m not going to spend the resources to look for a “Dennis Lysne when it could just as well be “Dennis Lynn,” “Dennis Lane”, or “Denise Lysine.” +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sluggo’s Quotable Quote "Being misunderstood by someone is vexation. Being misunderstood by everyone is tragedy." - Liu Shahe +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

See above. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Hmmmm! So Tina is in Washington... huh.......? Jo, you need some help. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sluggo's Quotable Quote "Why worry when you can obsess?" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Jo Said: A representative of the illustrious FBI told me "If you go to WA you will get into trouble." What are they going to do - arrest me? Why do they want to keep me out of WA.? Jo, Listen to me! I don’t know exactly what Agent Carr said to you on the phone, but about a week ago, he expressed to me that he was afraid that you would go to Washington and attempt to interview witnesses and get some unintended negative results. You interviewing witnesses is not the issue, trying to interview witnesses who do not wish to be interviewed is! He told me he was afraid that you would go about your task with the single-minded, incessantly aggressive, and socially and politically insensitive attitude that is the characteristic of your pursuit of a Duane/Cooper connection. He was concerned that a Florida woman, coming out of the blue and (seemingly) demanding answers will cause your targets to notify local law enforcement and treat you as a stalker. He and I agree on that point. Jo, you have never been able to see yourself as others see you. If you could, I know you would change. If you changed, others would be willing to help you. When you make statements like the above, you malign the integrity of someone who was probably just trying to help you. You should really learn how to control the things you say. 377 Said: I'd bet 100 to 1 that Carr was expressing concern for your welfare rather than threatening you Jo. Since you are so secretive about what you plan to do in WA it's hard to know what prompted Carr's words. If you think the FBI cares where you travel you are overestimating their interest in you and Duane by a large amount. Overestimating the FBI's interest in your affairs is kind of sad. The truth is less glamourous Jo, they don't really care what you do as long as you don't commit crimes within their jurisdiction. 377 I agree with 377. Get your head out of your ass and listen to 377. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sluggo's Quotable Quotes We all have mental problems, it's just that some of us choose to show them. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I'll put that on the list of CAVAs. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

SKYWHUFFO Said: I am leaning towards acceptance of the bag. I try to look at things as whole picture. In the whole picture there are SO MANY, myths born to this story because of mis reporting or exageration thru the years. This happened from day one, from DAN to DB. Call it the engineer in me, we have a word we use everyday with data, it's validate. By seeing the agreement from several different angles, Georger, Sluggo, and Jo, it helps to validate the existance.…. Sluggo, what's the next question? I like this alot better than watching the bickering. Great! This is what I envisioned when I suggested the CAVA Exercise! If all it does is stop the bickering, it’s worth the hassle. I believe we need to hear from a few more regular posters. When 377 and others have expressed an opinion, I will accept a motion to take a full vote. This exercise will require patience, when I started thinking about this, I thought that running the CAVA Assumptions in chronological order (from Cooper boarding the plane to Ingram finding the money (and farther)) would make logical sense, since assumptions tend to build on each other. I also think we will be best served by focusing on only one issue at a time. If others want to make a change it that process, I am a humble servant of this community and will gladly make changes. I am trying to walk a thin line between leadership and servant-ship, I just want this thread to become viable again. Speaking of leadership and servant-ship, I have been variously accused (on this thread and in PMs) of being pedantical, patriarchal, and having a messiah complex, so I want to be clear that the CAVA Exercise should be for this community and by this community. If someone else wants to take the reins, I will surrender them happily, and participate cheerfully. {NOTE: Does the forum accept polls and if so, how do I set it up? If it doesn’t we’ll just do a summary of votes expressed in a post for that expressed purpose. If the CAVA thing takes legs and walks, I’ll set up polls on my web site. Ireally don’t want to do that, plus, I have no way to limit it to just this community.} So, come on… let’s hear comments on CAVA #1 from others! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sluggo’s Quotable Quotes "Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us." --Jerry Garcia ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration): Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Okay… Let’s take a mid-discussion inventory. It seems like: SKYWUFFO is not convinced Jo is convinced Georger is convinced Bruce is not convinced Sluggo is convinced As for me, when georger cited the statement from Ckret that convinced me. (Remember that is what I was criticized for before.) georger also made a statement about LE, that would also be convincing to me if he stated a reference. So at this point of the discussion I’m convinced. But this exercise is about assumptions commonly held by the members of this community, so, more discussion is needed. Let’s hear from other posters. PS: I’m liking this discussion, it’s better than carping at each other all the time Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I did some quick research while waiting for the green flag. The first mention of a “paper sack” I can find in my (pretty extensive) collection of articles is in an article published in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette on November 13, 1976 by Joe Frazier (not the boxer). See it here. It says; “Dan Cooper paid cash for his ticket, then, clutching a paper sack, boarded the Boing 727 for the 30-min flight.” Note: No mention of a briefcase. Maybe someone just mixed up sack and briefcase, and then the sack lived on. If that’s the case… I don’t think the sack existed. Comments? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

SKYWUFFO, Yes... I will answer. Remember one thing though... the NASCAR Sprint Cup Race is at Martinsville today, so you have to wait for the race to be over and I have time to go through my records to answer. Think of it like a “Redneck Mini-Holiday.” This is exactly how I hoped this (CAVA) deal will work. Good, honest, well thought-out discussion leading to a community consensus. My next step is to go through all the media reports and find the earliest reference to the paper bag. I’ll report back as soon as I have found it. If anyone else has an early reference… chime in. Just from off the top of my head, I think it showed up in the late 80s in one of those anniversary newspaper reports. More after the race, Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, This thread seems to have settled down some (lately), and I have been thinking about ways to stimulate high-quality (and sometimes spirited) discussions. Sometimes it seems that every known aspect of NORJAK has been discussed (here) over and over and no resolution has been obtained. So here’s an idea I came up with this morning: Back in 2008 I was severely criticized over my use of the term “FACT.” Even though it hurt my feelings at the time, it was (for the most part) a valid criticism. There are very few “facts” in the NORJAK case. There are a lot of interpretations of testimony, scenarios built on myths, scenarios built on testimony, assumptions and suppositions built on myths and testimony etc. We (the Cooper/NORJAK non-professional investigation community) each have our favorite theories, and assumptions. Among those theories and assumptions there are some differences (a lot) and some commonalities. We may never know which assumptions and theories are valid, even if someone discovers who Cooper is/was. It might be helpful to catalog the assumptions, theories, and beliefs that are commonly held by the members of this community. I get a lot of communications from NORJAK enthusiast and neophytes asking questions that this group would consider pretty fundamental. I believe this group (thread posters) know more about NORJAK than probably any other group in the world (including the FBI as an organization). So what I would like to propose is that we take one single issue and discuss that issue in this thread and form a consensus as to whether it is true, false, or indeterminate. We can then build a list of items that the Cooper/NORJAK non-professional investigation community considers valid assumptions (referred to a Community Assessed Valid Assumption) or CAVA. The keys to success in an endeavor like this are discipline and the willingness to debate a minute aspect of the case which has already been discussed ad infinitum. The end product would be CAVAs that newbies and others could assume to be valid assumptions and move forward instead of covering ground that has been trampled to death. When an assumption is determined to be false or indeterminate, that will have value as well. I will take on the responsibility of tabulating votes and tracking the results. So, now I’m going to submit an issue for CAVA consideration, your response will tell me if you favor my proposal or not. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Issue #1 (for CAVA consideration): Dan Cooper was carrying a small paper bag when he boarded Flight 305 at PDX. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The floor is open for discussion. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

skyjack71 said: Better yet prove he is not doing this for MONEY Jo, Adventure Books (AB) of Seattle is a business. Of course he’s doing it to make money. Where did you get the idea he wasn’t (shouldn’t)? See the attached photo. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

What do you think about the “Christmas Photo?” Black Raincoat, Briefcase, Paper Bag… Jo would say; “That puts him on the plane!” {EDIT: This was written before I read the post above.} If it was taken weeks after the hijacking, Christiansen would be 45-years and 2-months old. That photo looks like a much older (and sickly) man to me. Sluggo

Orange1… I think I love you! (Or at least like you.) Here is a conversation that took place a short time ago (remember I’m a Whuffo, so my terminology probably isn’t correct): Sluggo: The decision to place a para-wing canopy instead of a round canopy on the cover will adversely affect sales. Most NORJACK and skydiving enthusiast will see the cover... see the illustration and say; "This can't have much to say about Cooper, everybody knows he jumped with a round canopy." Robert Blevins: The cover photos don't matter. They are poetic license. Everyone knows there are no actual pics of Cooper jumping from the jet. The title page uses a round chute anyway. It's the story that matters. So, Orange1 makes the first comment and says almost the same thing I said, proving I was right! I’m laughing my ass off. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, Maybe this will stir-up some serious discussions. 'Into The Blast' - How Secrecy Regarding New Book on Skyjacker D.B. Cooper Drove Us Crazy Have fun! Sluggo EDIT: Here’s some background information on Robert Blevens. About Robert Blevins - AB of Seattle Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I am aware of what you are contemplating… Hence my advice. That IS your reply. Why don’t you tell everybody what you are contemplating and ask their advice? Legal Notice: This post was NOT approved by georger because it relates directly Sluggo and/or Jo (individually or severally). Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

377 said: You forgot "The Triumph." He has asked me a few questions, I don't know whether or not he is thinking about a Cooper book (or screenplay). I'm sure he'll tell me if he wants to. Legal Notice: This post was approved by georger because it relates directly to DB Cooper and has nothing to do (directly) with Sluggo or Jo (individually or severally). Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Georger... Are you kicking me off of YOUR forum? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Jo, Please answer this single question openly and honestly: Have you (recently) been in contact with Frank Scozzari? Your answer should be in this format (Check one and fill out any applicable fields {in red}): [ ] Yes, Sluggo I have been in contact with him. He called {insert relative time here} and wanted to talk about {insert subject here}. [ ] Yes, Sluggo I have been. I’m sorry but I can’t discuss what we talked about due to {insert reason here}. [ ] No, Sluggo I haven’t had any discussions with Frank lately. [ ] No, Sluggo. I don’t have any idea who you are talking about. Who is this “Frank Scozzari? Please stick to the format above. I don’t care to hear about how the FBI has wronged you or why you know that Duane was Cooper. Just check the box {like this [X]} and fill out the required fields {in red})(if applicable). Thank you for your participation, Sluggo PS: A word of advice: The Jo I know had an abiding respect for the privacy of others, I hope she still carries that ethic. Selling out your core values will not serve you well. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, Have you guys seen SafecrackingPLF's "Through the Lens of Logic" Videos? Part 10 "Did Stacks Travel Independently?" Part 11 "Kaye Was Right About One Thing" Part 12 "A Widely Held View Begins to Sink with the Money" Part 13 "The Third Paradox" I haven’t had a chance to watch them in their entirety yet, but will this afternoon. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

377, I understand your point, but you have put me in a box. Re: My earlier post: Some Info from Random House: Skyjack: The Hunt for D. B. Cooper Written by Geoffrey Gray Category: True Crime; History - Modern Format: Hardcover, 352 pages On Sale: November 16, 2010 Price: $25.00 ISBN: 978-0-307-45129-3 (0-307-45129-1) Also available as an unabridged audio CD, unabridged audiobook download and an eBook. ISBN: 978-0-307-73579-9 Unabridged Audio Book Skyjack by Geoffrey Gray Hardcover Publisher: Crown On Sale: 8/3/10 {Sluggo Note: Go figure?} Geoffrey Gray explores one of the greatest unsolved criminal cases of the 20th century–the fascinating story of D. B. Cooper, the only skyjacker never to be caught by authorities. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ What would life be like if there were no hypothetical questions? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum