Baksteen

Don't know about the pricing, but there should be no reason to spend the money for the A-licence all in one go.. You must do slolo's after completeing AFF anyway - solos during which you can perform tasks that are required to obtain your A-licence. The way I read it, an average student will have gradually spent those $2000 on solo and coaching jumps by the time they achieve their A-licence - though I agree that the price does sound a little high. The A-licence is more than just a ticket to jump with others, by the way - it's also proof that you can do certain things, so you will need less extensive supervision. This means that you are more responsible for your own actions. ETA: that third dropzone you mentioned may not offer AFF, but they probably DO offer Static-line. Static line is a slower, more gradual progression than AFF but has the advantage that a repeat jump is way cheaper as you only have to pay your own slot AND that you prbably will need to spend less cash upfront. Where at first the accent lies on freefall during AFF, it lies on canopy skills with static-line. later in your progression you will compensate for that, so that in the long term though, it will matter little which progression you choose. You will have spent approximately the same amount of money and have obtained the same skills. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Yes - that should tell you something "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Ditto for me. Granted I've been in the sport less than a year - but I jumped a Sabre 1 170 twice, and each time it just slammed the shit out of me. The second one felt like someone had nailed me in the back of the head - and I got the worst line twists of my life to top it (almost had to chop it). This was after the best pack job of my life, to boot. I noticed that too - I have quite a few jumps under a Sabre 190 and boy, did that b*tch like it rough... The softest openings she gave me were those after a really crappy packjob. OTOH, if I treated her right, SHE would slam ME. I knew what to do.... "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Bad table manners +1 Smoking where it's not allowed. The government in it's infinite lack of wisdom has imposed a ban on smoking inside bars. I'm a non-smoker but aginst this. So are smokers. Rather than go have a smoke outside in the cold, people still smoke inside, but leave the door open 'so the inspection won't smell anything'. If you're too lazy to go outside, there's no reason you should bring the outside with you so that I as a non-smoker have freeze my butt off! "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Source: www.crosnet.nl, a platform for consultation between Schiphol and its surrounding residential areas (text in Dutch) and written in 2006. Since this website is still updated regularly, I reckon the information in the article is still current. Funny thing is, there are no standardised flightpaths into Schiphol and therefore the actual flightpaths are not indicated on any map. (I guess that plotting all the flightpaths would mostly obscure such a map.) Final approach is begun when the airliner is at 2k, or 3k at night (between 2300 and 600 LT). Using the Instrument Landing System (ILS) ensures that the pilot can, if necessary, perform the final approach themselves. Before final approach is initiated, airliners approach the 'final zone' from all sides, a result of the ATC having to coordinate all inbound traffic. Strangely enough, the departure flightpaths (Standard Instrument Departure, SID) are dictated - and by law. The airliners 'must' adhere to the SID up until 3k. Above 3k, CAA can if necessary redirect the aircraft. If CAA considers it necessary to redirect a/c below 3k, they can do so. At night, aircraft 'must' follow the SID until they are at 9k, 'circumstances permitting'. So there is no way to officially know the flows and no way to determine whether there are any gaps between these flows. A fellow skydiver has however set up a website counting the 'fly-overs' at the airfied my home DZ operates at (EHHV). There are several and all are doing their damndest - but there's little they can do. Unfortunately, CAA is the only authority in the netherlands regarding air safety, and if they keep hiding behind the safety argument there's no court that will burn themselves by telling CAA where to shove it. Besides, in order to negotiate, both parties must be willing to compomise and CAA has demonstrated again and again that they don't plan on budging even an inch. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Perhaps it's time for some pics so that you can better visualise what we Dutch people are talking about.

IIRC, LVNL is trying to divert part of their traffic to Lelystad, Rotterdam and Eindhoven in order to make the corridors around Schiphol less congested. Can I conclude from you post that getting rid of GA is indeed just a way to simplify procedures for them? Yes, that would be the solution that requires the least effort on their part. Ronald, you are in the KNVvL - what reasons does the CAA officially state that necessitates clamping down on GA? It always went well enough in the past, and as far as skydivers are concerend, we just need a "column" of airspace in which we can jump. Why is it so difficult for them to direct the traffic a safe distance above such columns? As for flying, a jumpship just wants to get to 12k ASAP and down again ASAP to pick up the next load. We don't require elaborate flying zones. I mean, we get these CAA-assigned climbing areas even if we only go to 3500 (preferably above villages instead of farmland - really clever of CAA, that) so what's the big deal in letting these areas extend all the way up to 12k? If we go to 12k there's no reason why an airliner shouldn't be able to pass the jumpship at, say, 14k without problems. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

I'm not buying that for a second The lingerie thing was there from the very beginning - if it took you so long to come up with an excuse, you would have thought of something better. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Spanking contests. Actually, spaking contests in themselves are fine, but once the subject of video is brought up, she immediately finds an excuse to weasel out of it: "seeing her sons soccer match"... "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Yes, there was a post by him in that thread. I could have hit the friend button, I guess.. But isn't there some kind of 'do you wish to continue' message or sunnink? "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Just now I got this too. I was browsing Quades topic in SC about "How long would the opposite of this exist? Oh yeah, two days." when DZ.com opened a new browser tab (IE 7.0) stating that my "friendship request to Shropshire has been sent". "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Just four more hours until the beer light comes on "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

You know, you can't even blame the air traffic controllers for playing it extremely safe - by some ludicrous rule the ATC on duty is now personally liable to prosecution if something happens. It's not the ATCs themselves that are to blame, it's the policy (and their boss). "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

I'm sorry that it appeared that I put words in your mouth, such was not my intention . But I stand by what i said. I haven't got access to the actual document. But insofar as the "outphasing" (I don't know the proper translation either) is concerned, we have all seen the type of 'negotiations' CAA likes to conduct, and the kind 'deals' you can make with them. Just wait and see - the locations you refer to are merely the first pebble of the avalanche. Once CAA got their way at these locations, they have created a very nasty kind of precedent. Additionally, the rule you refer to deals with skydivers only and says nothing about other GA traffic. As you know, skydivers are affected the worst by the proposals because they need the most altitude to conduct a healthy business. That doesn't mean however, that only skydiving is threatened - and GA knows it. Though I cannot find the official document online, the plans to extend the class A down to 1500 feet and to most of the surface area of the netherlands are real. I'd also like to stress that the stated "current" and "incidental" max. altitudes are complete BS, even though they are written down in the official document. In practice, for location Baarn we don't get over 3500 and we get 3500 only because the class "A" airspace doesn't extend lower than that so they can't refuse us entry. Yet. Locations Westbroek and Hilversum don't get any altitude over 6k - and even that is at the whim of LVNL. Theoreticaly, CAA can't deny us 9000ft a priori; we have the right to ask for altitude each flight, and CAA will determine the 'safety' of allowing us access per flight. In practice that means that CAA will deny us access per flight instead of being done with it in a blanket statement. DZ Flevoland has been shut down jan 2009. The 'desired maximum altitude' is irrelevant now - except for the occasional demo. And it's true what I said about holdings and temporary height restrictions at certain other DZs...they are at the same stage we were a few years ago, just listen to the jumpers bitch about being refused 13k. By a very, very strange coincidence those DZs are also the ones that will be closest to the Schiphol TMA once the two other DZs that are currently threatened have been bullied into shutting down as well. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

2/0/5 I've jumped at Hilversum (NL), Moorsele (B), Teuge (NL), Texel (NL) and Cerfontaine (B). My home DZ has four separate LZs, each of which belongs to a different municipality. I've counted these together as one place I jumped at (Hilversum). "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Yes, please post it. Too many other surveys are taken without anyone ever hearing back from the one who undertook it. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Peter isn't talking about jumps from above 28k, but if the CAA have their way about jumps from above 3500 feet. In addition to this, the CAA would like to extend the class "A" airspace all the way down to 1500 feet and to an area that encompasses almost all of the Dutch airspace above land (which is approx. 13,000 sq. miles or 34,000 sq. km according to www.anvr.nl). Two Dutch DZs have already been restricted to 6k and one of these has been forced to close down. CAA sent them a letter on March 28 2007 stating that "by the end of March 2007" skydivers would only "sporadically" be allowed to exit from altitudes higher than 6k. In practice, "sporadically" turns out to mean "when the entire radar at Schiphol Airport is empty". At least one other DZ is currently feeling the breath of the CAA hot in their neck, while again others are now experiencing the same problems the restricted DZs had a few years ago: holdings and temporary height restrictions that can and do vary from day to day. Out of the blue CAA recently presented a new Parachuting Regulation (RVS), trying to make all skydiver flights IFR "so that, if necessary, they can redirect a [jumpship] into less-than-VFR conditions, such as a Cb cloud". The Royal Dutch Aeronautical Association (KNVvL) which is the USPA equivalent had to submit a protest in about a single day (which they did). Because a skydiver is by definition always a VFR "aircraft", the CAA is considering to drop the IFR regulation, but fact of the matter remains that they will keep trying to formulate their new RVS in such a way that skydiving will be made near impossible. The reason? CAA states that they do not have any experienced air traffic controllers left, so they lack the facilities to accomodate skydiving flights, or ideally all GA traffic especially considering the planned increase in the number of flights from Schiphol Airport. Because of safety, or so they claim, they need all that airspace so they can "randomly redirect" a Boeing when they need to, without having to take any of that annoying GA traffic into account. Funny thing is, the number of flights from Schiphol is actually predicted to DEcrease and the CAA has laid off 100 people (how many [if any] air traffic controllers are among these is unknown) in anticipation to this. Another thing, last week an airliner crashed while on final near Schiphol Airport, possibly due to a technical fault in the altimeter. While I feel really sorry for the families of the deceased and wish them and the survivors the best of luck in dealing with the tragedy, part of me can't help but wonder how many other airliners were "randomly redirected" that day... Disclaimer: In this post I state my views and my views only. In no way are my views, opinions and the information available to me representative for those of my home DZ or any other, that of any other skydiver, or those of the KNVvL. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

new contestant especially for the spouse of a skydiver. Press "grotere afbeelding" for a closer look. The front says "NO I don't jump" The back: "YES I'd like to keep it that way" "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

At fifteen I was a grocery clerk at a supermarket. The job sucked - often I cycled the seven kilometers to work only to find that the people in the Butchers deparment had had a quiet day and restocked the shelves themselves and I could go back home. I still stuck at it for two years. Also starting at age fifteen, Iworked summers as a ride operator at a glorified playing ground - this job sucked even worse. Just press two buttons in the same order all day wait ten seconds before pressing the first button again, and repeat ad infinitum / nauseam. So I guess you could say that my first *real* job was doing dishes in a restaurant at age seventeen. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

QuoteWe are talking about completing STUDENT status and taking responsibility for yourself and your own safety. Skill is not a jump number, a license or a safety net. Again, no one is saying that once you get your "A" you are on your own. You are very much in need of further guidance and mentoring for a long time after. But don't "expect" everyone to run up to wipe your ass when you are done shitting any more. With the "A" license comes RESPONSIBILITY. To yourself and to your fellow skydiver.Quote Exactly. The A-licence demonstrates that a person can complete certain tasks and is a crude indication of jump#s. However, too many people in this sport think that just because they got their A/B/C/D and because they are alllowed to do stuff, they should. Hence the statement about the minimum skill set. My point is that the challenge for the DZ-staff is to estimate how much responsibility a person can handle and how soon. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Knowing what you know, you could have reminded him.

Welll, as I am the occasional stinking drunken bozo (especially AFTER I finish my upcoming two weeks bumming it at a certain DZ), there was no reason not to book a second class ticket, even for a ten hour flight. In any case, I'll be looking forward to meeting these interesting people you are referring to. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

On the same person? Spence, you perv! Couldn't let that one pass. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom

Having hit the 'magic' 200+ jump numbers, there is no legal cutoff for me anymore. But according to this conversion site I'll jump steady winds up to 20 mph (9 m/s - the wind limit for people with 6-200 jumps). Whether or not I'll amnifest is depending on currency, familiarity with the DZ, outs, hazards on/near the LZ etc. It also depends on what I'm doing on such a jump - a hop 'n' pop in which I can't do anything but "pull and flare" because I'm going straight down just isn't much fun. Gusts are a whole different kind of beast. I guess I'd jump gusty conditions - but only if the difference isn't too big. What exactly constitutes 'too big a difference' depends on the same factors I described above. Conversely, I *love* jumping on no-wind days no matter what I'm doing. Once my canopy is open I can play around a little and have some fun flying.

Just askany girl; 4 extra inches matters. A lot. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom