LawnDart21

"How'd I do on that skydive?" "You were absolutely average." "I've seen people do it better than you, but I've also seen it worse. You should be neither proud of nor diappointed in your performance." -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Darren, we gave you the bowling talk, bought you a bolling ball and even bought you bowling shoes, yet you still show up at the DZ. If you haven't figured it out by now, your never gonna get it, you might as well just keep jumping......... -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Good point. But to me, and some others I would suspect, the only difference is timing. Its a given that there is an immediate reprocussion from pulling a trigger. You suggest (very reasonably so) that a swoop poser cratering himself for example, is more of a possibility. I don't necessarily see it that way. I see it as a given that that swooper will crater in, its only a matter of time. Maybe a day, week, month or a year, but I have witnessed it more often then not as a given, not a possibility, it just takes more time to happen then when a trigger is pulled. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

My response to that is always: "I hope your a quick healer too." -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Admittedly I'm not an AFF instructor, but have 100s of first jump exits on videos, and I can't say that I've ever seen a student exit an airplane and try to "land on their feet" going unstable.....lol I would like to see that though....... If its not, I dont know what it is. (edit to add, I am only referring to dismissal of concrete evidence and well educated advice based on the individuals personal perception of thier own ability and skill set based on thier self image (ego) that wins out over the ability to reason when presented with concrete evidence which suggests they are in danger and need to slow down. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Most, if not all of us have been there at one point or another. On either one or both sides of this conversation: Jumper 1: I think you are going too fast and are in danger of injuring or killing yourself. Jumper 2: I hear what your saying and appreciate your concern, dont worry though, I can handle it. Since I started jumping, I have always been fascinated by the tug of war between our egos our ability to reason. Most people inherently possess a "self preservation" instinct that sets off alarms when we knowingly or unknowlingly place ourselves in harms way. Without a base rig on, most people would not stand at the edge of a 3000ft cliff in Norway. (If you ever see pictures of the base rig-less observers, they are always either sitting down or laying down, no one ever just stands right on the edge) the body and mind sees the edge and instinct tells us to back off, even if only by a few feet, but the instinct is there. If a gun is fired in a crowd, teh reaction of the crowd is instinctively to duck, or seek cover. You wouldnt expect someone to stand there while an unknown gun is being fired, looking around to see whos shooting. Survival instinct wins over curiousity of whos shooting, and you take cover. That is what fascinates me about how our egos have the ability to supress our survival instinct, enough so, that on an all too frequent basis, warnings and advice are not heeded and injury or death results. My sister is in the midst of a PHD in Psychology and I am planning on asking her what her opinion is over the holidays. Until then, I thought I'd start here. If someone is told "If you point a loaded gun at yourself and pull the trigger, you will get injured or killed." Chances are they wil accept the logic and not perform the task. But if some is told "If you keep flying your canopy like that you will get injured or killed", or "Attempting a 10-way head down when you have 50 jumps dramatically increases your chance or injury or death", more often than not in this sport, our egos squash our survival instinct and we pay no heed to the warning/advice. What are your thoughts? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

As I mentioned earlier, I feel that if someone possess the skills at 100 or 1000 jumps, and they pass the course, they can coach. That said....... Jump numbers absolutely mean something. "Been there, done that" so to speak, really does matter. There is so much more to being a good coach/skydiver than just getting the rating. Being on a plane that has an emergency exit, spotting and seeing another aircraft that everyone else missed at the door and asking for a go around, etc, these experiences are all things that make you a better coach/jumper and can only be attained by jumping, and it takes more than 100 jumps to acquire that type of experience. The 1000 jump coach, better flier or not than the 100 jump coach, will have seen more and experienced more in thier time in the sport, which means in theory they have more to teach beyond the basic dive and they will be cooler under pressure. Your quote kind of hits home with me, as a few years ago a very close friend who had just got his coach rating at a couple of hundred jumps, said the same thing you did, that skill mattered, not jump numbers. I told him that while that may be true to a certain extent, certain necessary skills can only be acquired through jump numbers, and not to underestimate the value of gained experience that simply surviving 1000 skydives offers. He said I undertsand what you are saying, but I 100% disagree with you. He died a week after our conversation under a perfectly good canopy due to a panic turn landing off the DZ. If anyone tries to rationalize that jump numbers dont matter, they are kidding themselves. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

F.U.! Despite my best efforts and 1000+ pack jobs, I cant break 7 minutes.......I've timed myself repeatedly and the best I can do is 7:15 ish........lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Twice: 1) A 265 lb tandem. He was 6'6" and in good shape. I had him stand on the scale (without a student harness), which he hit at 265. I then put on a tandem harness and got on the scale at 250lbs. We would have been 515 out the door.....I apologized to him, explaining we were over the max limit on the gear and that despite wanting to take him on a skydive, I coudnt do it. I actually had him wait while I called another instructor who wasnt as heavy as I was, explained the situation, he came down, was comfortably under the gear limit and took the guy on a great skydive. Alls well that ends well. 2) 3 years ago a licensed jumper from the 70s with 1200 logged jumps showed up after a 20 year lay off and wanted to get recurrent. I was asked to do the non method specific ground training as a refresher before an AFF instructor took him up to do a recurrency dive. After spending 15 minutes talking with him, I began to suspect that he had been to one too many Rolling Stones concerts in his lay off.....lol. Motor functions lacking, attention span of a brick, and his overall disposition could most appropriatly be described as "glazed over". Yellow eyes, a little jittery and just overall not in any shape, form or condition to make a skydive. I had him show me his arch on our student arch table, and it resembled, well, a diving board, zero flexibility. I made the decision at that time that I couldn't in good faith continue working with him and after consulting our S&TA and DZO, we decided it was in everyones best interest if he didnt attempt a recurrency jump. I politely conveyed the message, and offered to take him on a tandem if he wanted jump, to which he declined, thanked me and left. A month later I am reading Skydiving Magazine's "Letters" only to see a recap of our experience in the pages of the maggie, stating that I refused him a recurrency jump because his "table arch" was poor.............essentially blaming me for being biased against "old schoolers". I wanted to reply in the maggie to it, but decided to just let it go. I came to find out shortly there after, that at another DZ, he had also recently almost killed himself and an AFF instructor by panic bear hugging him on an AFF level 1 jump and was subsequently politely dismissed from their AFF program. I made the right call and got trashed in the maggie over it. Oh well, life thankfully goes on..........lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I also said in the same post Thats all this is about Dave. I also went on to say: And lastly, to quote you: And that brings us full circle. If your recommended to wear an AAD on a raft dive specifically, the next question should be WHY? Why does this jump specifically call for an AAD? And how does that reflect in what I am asking my AAD to do for me on that jump. I'll say it again Dave, you can point/counter point this for 12 more pages if you want to get in the last word, it doesnt change the fact your only "arguing" semanitics (sp?). Most people (myself included), wouldnt disagree that wearing an AAD on any dive is a good idea, as it is an added layer of safety. But when you start recommending it for a specific jump because it is "a good idea" to have it on a specific jump, anyone that skydives should reevaluate whether that jump is worth making. Period. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Absolutely my point. Replace "cop" with "skydiver" and "vest" with AAD: The skydiver who decides to do riskier things because he has an AAD is an idiot And for what will hopefully be the last time I have to repeat this......, THAT is what the recommendation to wear an AAD in the raft dive article was saying. IE, this is a riskier skydive, wear an AAD. If a skydiver will not do a raft jump without an AAD, but will do one with one, he or she is choosing to do exactly what you said in your post, doing riskier things because they have an AAD. Thats it, Period, end of story. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Sorry if that came out wrong. I hate it when work gets in the way of my posting on here....lol Of course there are additional risks involved in any unusual skydive like a raft, but with the proper prep, and right people & experience, those extra dangers can be mitigated to reduce the "dangerousness" of said unique skydive. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I've been on unsuccessful raft dives, even ones that have funnelled out the door. As I answered to Dave above, its not a matter of which jump is safer to me, I feel safe on either jump, ie, they are both within my safety tolerances. I do tandems, freefly, skysurf, fly camera, big ways, and whenever possible, I swoop. And I am proud to say that I have not yet seen the inside of a doctors office from any injury related to skydiving. Why? I think its 1) I've always been willing to listen to advice, and 2) I choose safe "to me" skydives. That simple. Its worked for almost 2000 jumps, I expect it to work for 2000 more. So when I say I dont see a raft dive as being any more dangerous than a solo, with the right people and right briefing and communication, it doesnt have to be. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Yes. There may be different risks associated with each jump, raft vs solo, but I would go on a solo with the same emphasis on safety that I would on a raft dive. Yes. Already have. That is where my "safety tolerance" comes into play. I don't consider the fact that I am wearing an AAD as justifaction to see a set of boobs in freefall and put myself on a jump I otherwise would not make, I don't (personal choice) need to sacrifice my safety ideals for breasts. (side note, there is fortunately no shortage of beautiful women that liek to jump topless in my current cirle of friends, so there wouldnt be an open slot in the raft to begin with....... -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Absolutely Dave, but........... I doubt when a cop is given a bullet proof vest he (or she) says to themselves "Alright, now I that I've got my vest (aad) on, let's go raid a crack house!" I will concede there is some merit to your post, but you are absolutely missing the point of what wearing an AAD is all about. Bill Booth said it best, (paraphrased) "As equipment advances to make skydiving safer, skydivers will continue to do more dangerous things to keep the death rate in our sport constant." Back to our earlier posts, for myself (my own personal risk tolerances) I dont consider a raft dive any more dangerous than a solo, because I am selective about the conditions that do them under. I wont go on crazy zoo raft dives just because I have an AAD. Im bolding this to be clear, the whole point of this thread for me was to get across the point that: My decisions about personal safety in the air start and finish with what jumps I choose to make, not with what I am wearing on that jump to keep me safe. That is where safe skydiving comes from. Not from recommendations to wear an AAD on a raft dive. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Just remember it doesnt take a hardcore mentality to kick you in the head and knock you for a loop. It can happen on even the most low key pick up team. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Yup. It took me a year to save up for AFF training after I made a tandem. I spent that summer on the beach wishing I was in the air skydiving. Now I spend my summers in the air wishing I was on the beach............ironic, huh? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Take 2 coaches, one has 100 jumps, another has 1000 jumps. Both are capable of flying nose to nose with thier students. The difference is that the 100 jump coach typically expends 99% of thier mental energy on flying thier own body to stay with the student, leaving only 1% left for evaluating the student in the air. The 1000 jump coach typically expends like 1% of thier mental energy on flying thier own body, leaving 99% left for evaluating the students, hence your apt to get a more thorough air eval and debrief, from a more seasoned jumper. But.......that doesnt mean I think a 100 jumper should not be coaching. On the contrary, I think if they pass the course, USPA or Skydive U, then they possess the appropriate skills to safely coach a student. And ultimately, the 100 jump coach will become a 1000 jump coach, its a learning process, and part of that process is just going up and doing the jumps. I think as long as any coach, 100 jumps or 1000 jumps, acknowledges thier own limitations, and fly within thier ability, they deserve to be coaching. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Ahem...... If you want to know who the three most likely people to kick you in the head in freefall are, look around you next time you are in freefall with your team..........lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Interesting perspective on the vest/aad example, but...... I would think that since an officer can't always choose when he (or she) is raiding a crack house, he (or she) may choose to wear it even in the most mundane of work settings, the idea being the officer cannot with any certainty know when they will or will not need the vest. The difference, a skydiver can have a say on whether they put themselves in that risky situation, like with raft jumps. Skydivers always have a choice on which jumps they go on, police officers dont always have the choice of when they enter the crack house. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Okay, I can see that, answer me this though, say a computer programmer in the US makes $1000 a week after taxes (take home pay), would the same job net $2000 a week in the UK? If gas cost twice as much in the UK, it wouldnt be a big issue if you were paid twice the wage we are paid here, does that make sense? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I have a question, I typed 640 (GBP) into a currency converter (320 per half hour * 2) and it came up as $1,152.60 given current currency rates. That means that for an hour of flight BodyflightUK would cost $1,152.60 US dollars. Skyventure Orlando lists an hour (peak) as $630, almost half the cost of the UK tunnel. I know our economies are not scaled with each other, but that just strikes me a very disproportionate price difference. Over here $1150 isnt really pocket money for most of us. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

THIS WEEK: THURSDAY AUGUST 25th through SUNDAY AUGUST 28th. TWIN OTTER, CASA and believe it or not, limegreenreese actually got us a HOT AIR BALLOON for the boogie for the weekend. Yup BALLOON JUMPS at SKYDIVE PEPPERELL THIS WEEKEND.

I am not anti-AAD, I own one and I jump with it. Before you bent my opinion totally out of whack and started arguing a point I wasnt even attacking, I started this thread with a question about an article on raft dives that stated among its recommendations that an AAD was recommended on a raft dive. Forget all the other stuff about being willing to jump with or without one, its a waste of all of our time to keep going back and forth on that subject, the info is out there, pro and con, people can decide for themselves. The original point of my post was to question any skydive that its recommended that an AAD be used, what that recommendation is really saying (presumably that you have a greater than usual probability of being rendered unconsciousand) and what that really means (that you are placing a greater amount of dependency on a mechanical device to save your life). Here is an example, a police officer is wearing a bullet proof vest (lets call it his AAD). And he approaches an armed robber who in turn points a gun at him. Should he take cover? Or should he stand there and square off with the robber because he is wearing a bullet proof vest? Just because he has the vest on, it doesnt mean he can act recklessly and square off with the robber, he should take cover, because avoiding getting shot is safer than getting shot with a bullet proof vest on. That was my only point, if a unique skydive requires an AAD as a "good idea" to ensure ones safety, then perhaps its not a "good idea" to go that jump. Lastly, while however good intentioned the article was/is, it also helps to foster the "if you have an AAD you can do more dangerous jumps" mentality which is not the message we should be sending to our skydiving brothers and sisters. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

It was. But it is also meant to be an auxillary device, quietly waiting in the shadows to do its job its whole service life. By adding it as a risk mitigator to riskier jumps, it ceases to be an auxilary device and become depended upon to fill the gap in risk tolerance. Assuming there are some jumps you would do without an AAD, to then say you would only do certain jumps with an AAD based on the percieved risk, is relying on your AAD for all the wrong reasons. You can point/counter point all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that people in this sport use AADs for more than their intended purposes, which is to be an auxilary safety device. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.