LawnDart21

24) People that have been in the sport a few years and have made a few jumps creating lists of pet peeves................. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I'm sorry, I gotta comment on this. Your coach or instructor should have warned you ahead of time, before your jump, that learning to back fly has the potential to put you in a flat spin on your back. They should have also clearly explained the recovery procedure for such an event, before your first back fly jump. Why? Because: At 120mph, 45 seconds from the ground, is not the place to realize that something hasnt been covered in a dive plan. When I was learning to skysurf, before my very first board jump, my instructor went over every possible scenario of what could go wrong that he could think of. He also went over (again and again) what the appropriate recovery procedures were. I am sure your instructor is a good instructor and this was just an oversight not covering this with you before hand. I say, to anyone teaching freeflying to newer students, use this as a learning tool. Take the extra time to explain that this type of thing can happen and what to do to recover from it. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

And you know this how? Your basing accusations on your assumptions. Sure I would agree that this seller acted inappropriately listing the unit the way he did, but I go back to your "he risked my life and yours" comment. He didnt risk anyones life. Your beef should be with the "disreputable" rigger you assume would install it. Which I would say is not a very likely event, as all the riggers I have ever met and worked with, tend to be the most reputable people in the sport. Be mad at the seller, thats cool, just be mad at the right offenses. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I'm kind of fuzzy on that one. Even if it was sold to an unsuspecting buyer, a rigger would never install it in a container for them to jump it, so at worst, the buyer loses $100 or whatever amount of money they spent, but couldnt put it in a rig, how exactly does that threaten your life and mine? Edit to add, if the answer is: "What if a rigger installs it anyways?", then its the rigger, not the seller that is endangering lives, not the seller. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

At a minimum, he'd need to find a willing instructor that weighed less than 130 lbs...........lol is there an option for not paying for tandems in Florida? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Yes, but for some reason that escapes my understanding, some people feel compelled to continously have the same discussions over and over again that center around the fact that (news flash) skydiving can kill you........ I think it's just some people's way of dealing with their fears to continually talk about it, to each ther own I guess. And for anyone about to call "bullshit", ask yourself, why is this post in General Skydiving and not the Instructors or Safety & Training forums? Its in General Skydiving for shock value, so more people can keep talking about "burning in" and "bouncing"..................and "views" and "replies" will be higher. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I don't believe that showing a new skydiver pictures of fatalies is appropriate. It's one thing to say you could get killed, its another thing altogether to show someone graphic fatality pictures. I am not trying to downplay the risk of death in the sport, but lets face it, there are 10s of thousands of skydivers all around the world, making 100s of thousands of jumps each year, and despite the fact we lose on average, 30 skydivers a year to fatalities, the majority of skydivers in the world can reasonably expect to live a long healthy life. That said, I think its important to inform all of our new jumpers about the very real risk of injury or death, but in a way that produces 1) an informed decision by the student to procede, knowing the risks, and B) offers a positive reinforcement that teh majority of the risk in the sport can be mitigated. I don't consider myself a daredevil because I skydive. (I'm a daredevil for discussing politics with my in-laws at holiday gatherings.......) That said, I always try to have a serious (yet positive) exchange with anyone new to the sport, where I ask them to give thought to all the other great things in their life, ie, family, children, friends, other dreams and aspirations they have. I then ask them to consider weighing losing all that for a skydive. That skydiving is unique in that its one of the few sports in the world that you can do everything right and still die. While the chances are of course not as high as the general population would think, they still are very real and need to be considered. I just ask the newer jumpers consider all that their lives have to offer before they persue the sport. For some the risk is simply not worth the reward, and its better they recognize it in the early stage of thier skydiving career, and for others it is the right choice, and they go on to fly circles around the rest of us. Where you fall in that catergory isnt important, that you take the time to evaluate it is. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Here is 2 questions. I'm sure most people have heard a jumper say "I beat the RSL" or "I'm pretty sure I beat the RSL" when going silver. Question 1: Can anyone offer a valid explanation of how one would "know" they beat their RSL? and Question 2) When an RSL pulls the reserve pin, its done almost imediately as the riser leaves the 3 ring, as the lanyard connecting the riser to the reserve pin isn't very long, and there isn't much, if any, slack (maybe a few inches) in the lanyard anyways. So, assuming the lanyard is designed to pull the reserve pin at the ealiest safest interval after the cutaway has been used, wouldn't someone who "beats the RSL" essentially be producing an out of sequence reserve deployment, ie, firing the reserve before the risers have even cleared the harness? In the rush to "beat the RSL" they may infact fire thier reserve before clearing their malfunctioning main. Personally I view comments like "I beat the RSL" as just someone trying to rationalize the fact they have an "auxillary saftey device", but that they didn't need it to count on it, they got the job done themselves. Almost like trying to make up for the fact they have one. "Yeah, I have an RSL, but I beat it when I had a malfunction". If you have an RSL and it works like its supposed to, that great, be happy about it, thats what its there for, thats what I say. Not a dis on RSLs or people that use them, or even people that say "I beat the RSL", just an observation. Thoughts? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Rosemount Shiraz Chateau St. Michelle Merlot and El Bastardo its a "gimmick" wine label, but its really a decent wine. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I try to make it a point whenever possible to jump with newly licensed jumpers on my DZ to help them work on the things they have learned during thier student status. I will typically pay for my own slot, even if my slot is offered to be covered by the new licensed jumper. (I will tell them that when they are in my shoes in the future that they can do the same thing for another new jumpers, thats all I want, to keep the cycle going). I have had a few coaching jumps paid for by the people I have jumped with, but its only because they went to manifest and paid for my slot without my knowledge. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I don't recall indicating in any of my posts that EPs consisted solely of going for you reserve. That said, there does exist a single handle EP system. I have only know one jumper to have it on thier rig, so to say it is a common thing would be inacurrate, but it does exist. The backbone of EPs, typically 2 step, cutaway handle then reserve handle, is that it is a rehearsed "auto response", in that any malfunction, especially a high speed one, simply does not allow for the time to be making EP decisions, nor should it. Ones EPs, whether its 2 steps, or on the seldom seen 1 handle system, should be rehearsed and well engrained in each jumpers head before they board an aircraft. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Very good points Ron. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

My suggestion was just regarding tandem harnesses for the student. Its just an idea, a theory. I dont see that much additional webbing practical for a sport rig though, as such an addition would prove very bulky I would think on a sport rig. The bungee cord between leg straps, while not a load bearing fix, is certainly a viable solution for sport rigs that will add a degree of preventative safety regarding falling out of a sport rig, but its not an absolute. An observation that I have made regarding the gear I have owned is that my 1st rig did not have hip rings, and as such the leg straps (in retrospect) did not have the same freedom of movement that my new rigs have with hip rings. Hip rings, while providing a greater range of motion for the leg strap, also allow it to move further down the leg in a sit fly position (with the abscence of the bungee cord modification). If something can be taken from this horrible incident, perhaps it is that we can all take a closer look at how well our own gear fits us. Another idea that I have had in my head, but yet to try and create is to sew a piece of webbing high on each side of a pair for freefly pants with a button on the other end. The idea being that once the rig is on, the webbing would "button" over the legstrap, preventing it from sliding down the leg. It wouldnt be load bearing, but again, I think just keeing the leg straps where they are supposed to be in freefall and during deployment is the best way to increase safety. Lastly, I think that its important to remember/acknowledge that todays gear is incredibly well made, and when used in a manner consistent with its designed purpose, that all of todays gear is inherently safe as is. And it is when we begin to push the envelopes of our gear, it creates a higher probability of it doing something outside of its intended design (like leg straps riding down the legs in a sit fly). Our gear is simply metal and fabric, woven into an intricate design that, when used correctly has a very very high success rate in performing as intended. But it is still inanimate metal and fabric, and doesn't know its not supposed to act in certain ways. We need to all possess the forsight (know the limits) of understanding what are gear is prone to do and not do. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I believe from the 1st post that it was a total, no main to actually cutaway. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I ask then, as it pertains to this thread: Is a 100 jump jumper that lacks proper education/understanding of her gear, that leads to a cypres fire careless? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

A piece of webbing that is looped at one end (thereby allowing the lower back strap to pass through it, so it can move freely due to different size students). The other end of the strap would go through a friction adapter coming back out going upward, so that it can be shortened/lengthened as needed to account for different heights. The other end of the friction adaptor would have another strap continuing downward and then having two straps coming off it at its end, at a 45 degree angle, that would attach, one to each leg strap. It would look like an upside down "Y" from the back strap to the leg straps. Now how much force it could absorb is beyond my knowledge, but I am sure there are those that can make that assessment and build it accordingly. It would require a very minor alteration of the current harnesses out there. And ultimately it wouldnt necessarily have to have a high load bearing ability, as if it does its job in the first place, ie, keep the body and harness in the position it is mean to be in, when the chute does open, the force will go out where it was originally intended. Just my .02 -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Amen. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Thats easier for some to do than others. And like Derek said, why would you ask for help with something if you (incorrectly) thought you understood it in the first place? Did you know that before you started skydiving, or were you taught that rule by a thorough instructor? It wasnt until I got my riggers ticket at 700 jumps that I had a thorough understanding of how a reserve works. Prior to that it was "1) Pay for a repack & 2) If I need it, open it." Was I any less responsible at 400 jumps for not knowing how my reserve was packed and "why" it works than I am now? Where do you draw the line about knowing gear? Its drawn by WHAT you are TAUGHT and by WHOM. What if she thought what she was doing was correct at the time? (See the theme? ...poor education) Without even knowing her (I dont know her either), you'll just assume she doesnt value her life. Pretty bold assumption. How many people do you know that do value thier lives and still make poor choices/decisions, by their own fault or not? The degree of which that is passed on from teachers to students can vary greatly. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

There is a difference between dumb and ignorant. Unless you start the sport with a complete understanding of everything there is to know, you must learn it as you go. Those of us that were taught by exceptional instructors take for granted the fact that not all students are given the same level of thorough instruction that we were. Add to that at alot of "busy" DZs, once a student gets thier license they are cast off on thier own, often forced to learn skydivings "next lessons" on thier own, or from a 200 jump wonder that teaches them "less than accurate" things. Falling through the safety cracks is very possible and it can and does happen from time to time. Like I said before, this would be a great opportunity for the DZ to learn where in her path she failed and then prevent it from happening again, by being able to recognize the signals that caused it, whether it was as a student or a licensed skydiver. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I say no, it does not sound like gross negligence on the jumpers part, rather a lack of education on the functionality of her EPs and her gear. She obviously was not correctly informed on how the addition of an RSL would affect her EPs. She also did not have a clear understanding of jumper responsibility in general regarding EPs (the importance of pulling silver). Now she either was taught it and forgot it, or not taught well enough as to the utmost importance of completing EPs. As a matter of course, I would backtrack through her student progression and see if there was something there that was missed. There is NO WAY in this sport that any jumper should get to 100 jumps without having a clear understanding of their EPs and how thier choice of gear affects those EPs. Its not a grounding situation, its a re-education situation. Just my .02 -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Yes, you are right. I remember talking with the manufacturer, and at the time, the reserve cable did not have any freedom of movement within the pillow, like how a D-ring will slide up and down the cable until it reaches the end. Newer versions of the reserve pillow allowed the cable some freedom of movement within the pillow, like a D-ring, however the range of movement is limited to the size of the pillow, ie, not very much, but some movement is better than none. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

In 2002, I bought a 94 Vector 2 and a 94 PD 143 in good shape, together for $500. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I had the same thought a few years ago.......lol Switched to a pillow reserve. A few months later I'm in a sit fly and a friend comes in to dock his feet on my thighs, comes in a little high, gets in my burble and ever so gently, his sneakers come down my lift webs........BAM I'm under an instant reserve at 8000ft with riser twists/line twists pinning my head to my chest and little tweety birds flying circles around my head.......lol. When I (finally) landed, we measured how far my reserve pillow had moved. The bottom of the pillow was still firmly seated, and the top of the pillow rotated forward just 2 inches, but it was enough to pull the cable and pop the pin on the reserve. I'm not saying dont switch, that was 1500 jumps ago, and I still prefer my pillow over a D-ring. Here's why: 1) when belly to earth, a pillow will float out, away from your body, which I feel, in a high speed mal makes finding it easier than a D-ring which tends to press up against ones body when belly to earth in a good arch. 2) A pillow will flex with the lift web. A D-ring will not. If you take a container that has had alot of jumps, you can pull out the reserve handle and see the "impression" that the hadle has made in the lift web. Is it still structurally sound? Sure, I just dont think putting any additional stress on a lift web is prudent. (edit to add, I have never ever ever heard of a lift web failing at the reserve handle point, this is just a personal observation/preference, that I dont like to see). 3) My EPS are grab each handle with one hand at the same time, peel up cutaway, pull down cutaway handle, peel up Reserve pillow, Pull down reserve pillow. I only have 2 cutaways, 1 intentional and one live, and its my prefered method. 4) You can't embrodier: PIMP HAND" on a D-ring, and my PIMP HAND be strong............... -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Thank you. It worked. I've been at this job a year, I should have posted that ? a year ago........lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

MY home PC automatically refreshes(viewed/unviewed threads) when I am in the dz.com forums. But my work computer doesnt. I have to click "refresh" every time I view a forum, or a thread to get the latest replies. How do I set my work PC to automatically refresh like my home PC? Thanks -- My other ride is a RESERVE.