LawnDart21

I can't remember the last time I felt 100%....lol

Along time ago, at a DZ far, far away....... TM (me): "Here's your hat, let's see if it's fits" Student: (Looking at frappe hat) "What is THAT?" TM(me): "Its called a "Frappe hat". Student: "Why do they call it a frappe hat?" TM(me): "I don't really know. I heard once that "frappe" is a French word though, which makes this is a French hat. That means that the hat is smelly and ungrateful." Student: "I'm French." TM(me): "Now call!" Live and learn.....lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

As the TM on the other side of the video, when a couple of videographers ask me on camera how I am feeling. I tell them "I got a bad feeling about this jump". When they laugh, I say "don't laugh, the bad feeling I have is about your jump, not mine." That usually gets my students to smile. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

No reason to move to New England? C'mon, in addition to the kick ass wind tunnel going up, we have 3 Twin Otter DZs within 90 minutes of it! (www.skyjump.com, www.jumptown.com, www.ugojump.com) Plus we have the Ben & Jerry's factory in VT.....lol If you've never done a hop n pop from 4000ft from a Cessna when the ground temp is 32 degrees farenhiet on the ground, your missing out! Winter jumping in New England! -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I think the video serves a purpose in highlighting the danger of complacency. I dont doubt that all the instructors involved, at heart are basically good people. They got ratings of different sorts so it would be fair to assume they had/have some understanding of the inherent risks of thier actions, before the jump was made. The question (for learning purposes) for each of us to reflect on is how can a group of presumably knowledgable skydiving instructors all suffer a collective brain fart and allow that jump to occur. Good people do bad things sometimes. I still think they are all dangers to our sport for thier actions, and continue to be, I would not board an airplane with any of them on it, but then again, I am also not in their shoes, so perhaps if they can figure out how they all allowed that situation to occur, then maybe, just maybe, they will learn from it and share what they have learned with others, to prevent it from happening again. If I saw that in them, I would perhaps reconsider being in the air with them. It was a horrible video, but in the end it could prove to be a valuable learning tool. We will all find ourselves with the opportunity to be in thier shoes at some point, and its learning tools like this that may give the next person pause to reflect and say "No Thanks, maybe thats not such a good idea". -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Okay, I'll give you that, in the event of an engine failure on take off, I'm not responsible for my student..... I'm not responsible for making sure that everyone on the plane is wearing their seatbelts before take off. I'm not responsible for making sure that everyones helmet s(potential projectiles) are worn or secured before take off. And I'm not responsible for making sure my student is in a crash position if the plane does go down below 1000ft. I'm not responsible for doing anything that would give my student the best chances for survival in an emergency situation. That's the pilots job, right? I'm not responsible for doing alot of the things that affect me and my students safety. I do those things anyways..........becuase my student is my responsbility. "god complex"....."sky god"...........hmm, not too far apart, I must be a sky god.......... You can point-counter point me all day on this. At the end of the day, this "liability" knows that after 1000 tandems, my way works for me, and my students are the better, and safer for it. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Of course you do... And YOU put your students life at risk by doing so, YOUR responsibility. No one, not the camera guy with the wing suit blow out, or the pilot who forgets to run up the engines before take off, no one is responsible for your student but you. You have apoint Bill, but at the end of the day the tandem instructor is responsible for his students life, no one else. Why do I get my tandem student jump ready every time we have a hop n pop getting out low? If the hop in pop jumper puts his PC over the tail and the plane starts to go down, I am getting my student, my responsibility, out the door. Do I blame the hop n popper, or the pilot for not being able to fly without an elevator. No. I accept full responsibility from the moment I gear them up, to the moment I gear them down. The TM (I) can't protect a student from those occurances, but it doesnt mean I get to pawn off responsibility to the pilot or the guy that made the wing suit........... -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

You make an excellent point. I wish it were a clear black and white issue, but let me put it in this perspective, here's ane xample: As jumpers, we are clearly forbidden to jump through clouds by the FAA FARs, right? So on a heavily clouded day with a few sucker holes available, a pilot takes a full load of jumpers up. The pilot trusts them, they are all his friends, and they all hold instructoral ratings and he says to them, I'll fly you GPS over the spot, if you see a hole, I trust you to go, and if your socked in, I trust you to stay in the plane. The pilot did his job, right? So, they get a green light and they are socked in, solid layer, but then Joe Schmo jumps anyways, and just as he's opeing up through a cloud, Mr. FAA man looks up and sees it. The pilot ends up getting busted for it and his license pulled for violating a FAR. So I ask you, who does the FAA consider responsible? Obviously the jumper f'ed up by jumping, but he was allowed to do so by the latitude (trust) given to him by the pilot. Trust is a fine line, but responisbility still rests with the pilot in command, of a plane or simply a tandem passenger. Does that make sense? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Yes. As the TM you take full (%100) responsibility for the safety and well being of your student when you choose to take them on a jump. As for jumping with videographers, thats where trust comes in. I have 4 videographers I work with, and I can say that I trust all 4 with my life and the life of my student. If I didnt trust them unqueestionably with my life and m students life, I absolutely, positively would not jump with them. But at the end of the day, if anything happens to my student, even if its videographer induced, its still my responsibility. As a TM I have one job and one job only, bring my student back to the ground safely. Just because we have a videographer with us, doesnt mean that I am now any less responsible for my student. But again I want to emphasize, any TM that leaves an airplane with a student attached to them is accepting %100 full responsibility for the safety of their student. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I knew that. I was saying "You" figuratively. Your post had the TMs expalanation on it. Sorry, wasnt implying you were him. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

In reply to the tandem instructors explanation, I feel compelled to give my .02. Skydiving is a very "blame intensive" sport. Whether its 2 canopies in a near miss on landing, taking out a formation by docking to hard, banging containers in the door, etc, whenever there is an issue, it seems in skydiving there (for better or for worse) must always be someone or something held accountable for the issue. With that said, I prefer to look at responsibility rather than blame. In this instance, the TM was and is solely responsible for the events that took place on that skydive. Here's why. The Tandem Instructor allowed those people on his jump. The priviledge of being a TM hinges upon a singular responsibility of returning your student back to the ground safely. ANything that happens that might jeopardize the students safety or the instructors safety, for any reason, is the responsibility of the TM, as it is THEIR student, thus THEIR responsibility to return the student back to the ground safely. You (the TM) chose to leave an airplane with your friends in tow (literally and figurately....), therefore you bore %100 of the responsibility of anything that happened on that skydive to yourself and your passenger. Remember any hallmark jump, 1000, 2000, 3000 as a tandem is mostlikely also a hallmark jump for your student, thier 1st. In every instance, thier 1st jump must always outweigh your 1000th jump, 2000th jump, and so on, in terms of priority. As as aside, my 1000th jump was an uneventful tandem with video. I had hoped it would be a sunset tracking dive with my friends, but a busy day on the DZ turned it into a work jump. As excited as I was for making jump #1000, my students jump #1 was more important, so away we went on a boring old tandem, and I gotta say, my student had a blast, and I got a keep sake (copy of the video) of the milestone jump as well. As for the other knuckleheads on that jump. I would love to know the explanation that was given for grabbing the drogue bridle. If I saw that on tandem video I was the TM for, I'd be in jail for assault, because I would have knocked out anyone that jeopardized my student and my life like that. So with that said, whether the TM knew about it or not before hand is a moot point. If he did and he lied to cover his own butt, so be it, that happens in our sport ocassionally. He'll have to live with himself for doing it. If he didnt know, it was a learning experience and hopefully he is the better for it, but keep in mind, fault or no fault 100% of the responsibility for safety of a student lies with the TANDEM INSTRUCTOR, if another jumper fucks you up in the air, its still YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, because YOU ALLLOWED THEM TO BE THERE. As for the other knuckleheads on that jump, they need to go play golf, if they, with all there instructoral ratings, are too f'ing stupid to realize that leaving linked with a tandem pair and grabbing a drogue bridle are FUCKING DANGEROUS AND STUPID, then they dont deserve to be skydivers. For the rest of you that will end up in airplanes with these guys down the road, remember, you are less safe because you are in the air with these people. Stupid is as stupid does, and if they can fuck like this once, you better believe they can fuck like that again, just pray you arent in the air with them when they do. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Where did you learn to stow your lines? Those are the ugliest looking line stows I have ever seen. It'll most likely open, but I wouldnt jump it on principle. UGLY. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I'm getting in on this thread alittle late, but I concur with the majority, you'd be hard pressed to find any instructor willing to let you jump with them as a freshly licensed jumper, and if you did find one, they need to have their ratings pulled. It great you want to jump with your friends, and in time you will be ready. Just keep jumping and jumping and some day you'll get there. As for me, I will only let someone swoop my tandems if: 1) They have an instructoral rating or 2) I'm married to them. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

At the end of the day of jumping yesterday I was approached by a gentleman who was in our spectator area watching us land (tandems) and he asked what the minimum age was for doing a tandem. I said 18, and he said, c'mon now, what is the real minimum?, like I was hold back on him or something. He said he had a 13 year old daughter that really wanted to go on a tandem. I told him, that based on our state's laws, our DZs policies, the gear makers policies, etc, that no one under 18 could legally sign our waivers, and that we would certainly welcome his daugher for a tandem on her 18th birthday. Well, that wasn't the answer he was looking for. I clearly explained that a 13 yr old can't sign a consent waiver. And cited as an example if she were to get hurt, beyond the DZ and myself as the instructor, that she could sue her father for needlessly endangering her, etc, ect. He got kind of pompous, and said, I have an attorney, whom I'll be consulting and we'll be back, we'll just see about that waiver. I kept my cool (despite my blood pressure rising) and said, as long as your lawyer is over 18, I'd be happy to take them on a tandem as well, but no attorney in the world is going to be able to get your daughter to make a tandem skydive here before she turns 18. He snapped "we'll just see about that" and stormed off. I had an awesome weekend, 27 tandems in two days, and some whuffo knucklehead has to go and ruin my good vibe by being a cocky whuffo. I dont care how much money he offered, I am not taking Veruca Salt on a tandem at 13 years old. What a buzz kill. Anyone else have similar expierences? Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

There is absolutely positively nothing wrong with that.

You know your in for a quick ride when Mr. Mullins starts calling "Two Minutes!" before he even starts to taxi......... If only all planes could climb that fast........ -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I can't speak for the others. For me, lets just say it was clouded in at 1601ft...... Side bar, my one gripe with AFF (which I went through) versus Static Line training is that in AFF, we started at 13,500ft and then once off AFF, did a "low solo" at 3,500ft. I think it unnecessarily engrains 3500ft to be a "low" altitude to get out of a plane in AFF students. Static liners by comparison I have seen, are much more comfortable getting out on lower passess, as thier training started getting out at like 2500ft in the first place and they prgressed "up" not down in exit altitude. The reason I got out that low, and will continue to do it (if and when the opportunity presents itself again), is that getting out of a plane under 2000ft doesnt have to be a "panic situation", even if the plane is having an emergency and you must exit. I think its important to know where ones "main or reserve?" limit is for an airplane emergency, and also to have gone out real low a few times in a non emergency situation, so that if/when it happens for real, it won't be the first time you do it. Think about it, a jumper who has never exited below 2000ft is in a Cessna that the pilot instructs everyone to "EXIT EXIT EXIT" at 1800ft. If I go to leave from the door and freeze, I can hose the others behind me and th pilot. If I've been out on the strut at 1600ft before, I am less apt to panic/pause in a real crisis. Just my opinion, hope that helps. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Your estimate of 800 ft openings is coming from a terminal velocity opening. Most of these low hop-n-pops are sub terminal openings. I jump a Cobalt, which is known for long openings, I'd say consisitently 600-1000ft. (I can't gauge any better than that given my Alti isnt that accurate). On a subterminal hop-n-pop, gievn I would pack it for a quick opening, I can expect a 300ft opening. In my example above. 1600 exit approx 3 second delay approx 1300ft deployment alti sitting in at approx 900ft. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

1600' out of a 182, no cut, 3 second delay. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Doing 33 tandems in a weekend and then getting a paycheck with a comma in it, for 2 days "work", thats my fun time. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I'm a coach, I have 250 jumps, and you suggest that I go more head down to catch a student? That will increase my speed of closure and decrease my visibility. Hmm, not exactly a recipe for success. Perhaps a better solution would be to prevent yourself from being put in a position that requires you to go into a head down dive to catch the student. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I say (in gest): You gotta go sometime, why wait patiently when you can go kicking and screaming? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

People have gone in (and will continue to do so) fighting mals that cant be fixed. They spend the rest of their lives fighting to save a canopy from being chopped. Thats an "angle" that needs to be addressed. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Don't forget one of the golden rules regarding cutaways: "Gear is replaceable, we are not" -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I married her.