LawnDart21

I don't consider it over board to explain the worst case scenarios to a prospective jumper, I think its actually very appropriate, as long as it's done to foster a better understanding of the risk tolerances within this sport, rather than to scare someone away. Your post suggests you elected the former, to educate your friend in an attempt to help them make an informed decision. No problemo. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

That should be done by anyone jumping out of a plane, day or night............. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I've seen a couple of closing loops made out of sneaker shoe laces............... -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Okay, so instead of trying to change the person's perceptions for the better and try to keep them in the sport to foster growth, we should just encourage anyone that doesn't grasp the status quo within a handful of thread posts, to just leave the sport? Way to promote the sport. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

And my verbal score on the SAT was 640 too....... And to think I used to be a cunning linguist. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Messgae getting blurry. Two different people. In that example of the person considering leaving the sport, that was someone that posted an incident, not the person involved in the incident. All I'm saying is that alot of times the person involved in the actual incident gets thrown in front ofthe forum whilest they cannot speak for themselves cuase they are in the hospital. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

In your example, most, if not all, of the 50-75 people will get reported as far as I know, to USPA, and then it is analyzed and packaged appropriately every year in Parachutist. If we have faith that all USPA GMs do their due diligence, then all incidents get reported. Since you picked hooking in, for all intensive puproses, hooking it in is entirely preventable and we have already established a patent flaw in this type of error, "pilot error" in some capacity or another. By your logic, then if another 75 people hook it in and it gets reported, it will increase our understanding of this type of incident, beyond what we learned from the first 75 people. In truth, if 75 more people hook it in making your example 150 total, we will learn very little additional information, than we did from the first 75. In this incident type, most all that can be learned has been learned. So, I go back to the 1st question. What additional benefit does the 76th or 77th hook turn incident provide us? Very little. But it will it have a big impact on the person being cast out over the internet. Thats my point. I agree with you certain frequencies can provide insight, but what about the right to privacy of the injured or deceased when the added insight to be gained is only nominal, as it is in hook turn incidents at this point? A woman in another thread threatened to sue dz.com over a potential misrepresentation of a demo jump. Where does it stop? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

There in lies the point I trying to make. What greater good is served by understanding the frequency of an incident versus the additional emotional trauma that it can cause the person involved. With very few exceptions (like gear failiure), knowing the frequency of an incident does not deliver a huge amount of additional benefit in the analysis, where as the emotional impact on the person being posted about is rather large. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

From what I have read on this site, that usually happens when the incident is more than just a pure accident. Like violating an FAA reg, BSR or demo requirement. I would agree with you there and consider that type of silence "denying an incident". But in most legitimate incidents, I can't see where not sharing that John Doe skydiver broke L2 & L3, has no insurance, got 7 stitches, etc, etc is denying an incident. I believe there are a number of valid incident reports that offer clearly defined problems and resolutions that caused the incident and can prevent further incidents. Those should be posted and shared. Again I have no idea by whom though..... There are also alot of incidents on the forum that are being posted with unnecessary amounts of detail regarding the cause of the incident and the resulting medical complications, without the injured jumpers consent or input. Do we really need to know if someone has had their spleen removed? Does that foster learning? So I guess I'd ask again, if John Doe gets life flighted out of a DZ that I am at, and I dont feel it is my place to share it with the world on DZ.com does that constitute denying the incident? I see it as just respecting the privacy of that person. I dunno. I agree with alot of what you said. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I agree with you 99% Ron. I just dont think that not posting an incident is "denying" it happened. I think for alot of people the value of their relationships with the injured jumper is higher than the need to discuss (often times very personal details) with the general skydiving public. Lets say for example that I witness a swooper crater himself, and in my humble estimation it is a carbon copy of countless other incidents. Do I have an obligation to the greater good of the community to share it, despite the fact it will probably do more harm to the jumper involved than add good to the community for sharing it? Again I'm just speculating. I see your points and consider them valid, I just dont agree completely. I like the trhead starter idea too. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I'm just thinking out loud here. I have noticed more than a few instances in the incidents forum recently where someone expeirences an incident, and before that persons bandaids are even put on in the ER, somone else (typically with no relation or relavance to the incident) is posting the incident to dz.com. I agree we can all learn from incidents, but given the vast number or recurring incidents (hook turns gone bad), it kind of surprises me that some people feel the need to instantaniously post an incident on here the moment it happens, offen times without all the relative facts or without concern for the emotional impact on the person involved in the incident. Take a 200 jump "swoop god" who hooks himself in and is staring down a 6 month recovery on his back and thousands of dollars in medical bills, he can rest assure that before he is even out of ICU, his incident will be plastered all over dz.com and as he is mending he can read all about how dumb he was. There was even an incident recently over a flag jump where the poster apparently upset someone, so much so the poster was contemplating leaving the sport over the conflict it caused. So my (rant) question is why do people feel the need to post an incident at warp speed the moment it happens? Especially if they were not a key player in the event or don't have the experience to offer a constructive diagnosis of the event. So I ask then quite literally and seriously, what is it that gives one the right to post an incident? I know that this type information can help save future lives and should be constructively shared to prevent it happening again, but I ask who is it that should be sharing the info and when is it appropriate? I ask becuase I don't have the answer. I just feel bad for all the ICU occupants that get to read about how bad they f'd up before they are even out of the hospital. I've witnessed numerous incidents over the last 5 years in the sport, yet I posted only 1 of them on here a few years ago, and it was only at the request of the injured party while he was recovering, to disperse the rumors and accusations that were mounting about him on dz.com during his recovery because someone else, uninvolved of course who "heard about ABC at XYZ" that decided the world needed to know about his incident. Just my .02 Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I jumped naked out of the B-17 bomber at Quincy a few years ago. I told people I had to sell my clothes to buy the jump ticket. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Get the cheaper 250. Its your first bike, so you are destined to either drop it or it will just fall over on its own (kick stand on asphalt on a hot hot day). Its almost an absolute certainty to happen. Drop the cheap bike, then buy biggger and better down the road. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Good point, my internet communication protocols need some refreshing. Wont happen again. Sorry for waisting your bandwidth.......... -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Sent PM. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

There have been a lot of recent landing injuries with the same premise: Jumper on highly loaded canopy that had been "warned" by others that they were exceeding their ability, and then they hook themselves in. With that said: What is becoming an almost automatic response to these threads it seems is other jumpers saying: "I was the same way you were when I was at your experience level, I wouldnt listen either, but I was lucky though and lived through it. It was stupid, but I was lucky." Translated: "Do as I say, not as I did." What message does that send to the next person about to hook themselves in? The "I got lucky" poster didnt listen and lived, so why should the next one slow down. I look back over my canopy progression, and I know that appropriate coaching, patience and the willingness to listen to others got me through the swoop gate safely, not being "lucky". As tired as I am at reading the same hook turn incidents over and over, I'm also getting tired of the "I was just like you but I was lucky" responses. It gives the "next potential crater" no cause for slowing down, in fact it does the opposite, it clearly illustrates that people can reject constructive advice and still survive intact. Is that really the message we want to be sending? -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

And that is a very safe & responsible way to feel. It all boils down to the experience of the swooper. If they have the appropriate experience, then swooping a tandem can enhance the jump, but if they dont have the appropriate experience, they shouldn't be there at all. As such, there are very very few people that I will let swoop my tandems: 1) My wife & her friend (both of whom I have jumped with since my 1st jump) 2) Our staff videographers, TMs and AFF instructors. 3) Our DZ 4way team that are insanely talented. 4) A half dozen or so other skydivers that I jump with that have been skydiving since before I was born. (Their licenses were issued before my birth certificate.....lol) -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

I only fall down. In 850+ tandems, I have yet to figure out how to go back up again. IMHO all this "tandems do weird stuff" is not accurate. We go out, we get stable, we through the drogue and we fall to the earth, anchored in the sky by the drogue. Nothing weird going on. Any fall rate change is subtle. The primary problem with tandem swooping is that the swooper is typically so amped up becuase its their friend or relative that they go BALLS TO THE WALL to get to the tandem. They get their too quick and then they have to settle down THIER fall rate, the tandem's fall rate isnt changing. My wife and her best friend swoop my tandems all the time (with student permission of course), we dock and it all flys super stable, every time. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

If I see a broke skydiver stuck on the ground, I have been known to go put a jump or two on thier account. Or "tip" for a pack job w/a jump ticket. Seeing the look on someone's face that didnt think they were jumping that day light up when you tell them they are on the next load is worth the ticket(s). Karma. -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Everyone has different experiences I guess. After talking with Mike (I think that was his name?) I sent 2 Xfire 119s to Skyworks from NH and when I called to "check in on them" they were already back on my customers front porch. No complaints from me or my customer, plus his Xfires fly great with the new set. I demo'd them for him when they got back......lol -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

http://www.icaruscanopies.aero/contact.htm SKYWORKS Parachute Service 2222 Buffalo-West Springs Hwy. Buffalo, SC 29321 - USA Phone (864)-429-8428 Chicago Service Center 3215 East 1969th Rd Ottawa, IL 61350 Phone (815) 434-6094 -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Three of the most talented skydivers I have ever known can now be found 1) On a golf course 2) Building a house 3) Kite surfing Interests can change, I guess it happens. (Granted they dont talk about jumping all winter, so it doesnt technically relate to the thread, it just reminded me three super talent jumpers arent jumping that much anymore.....) -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

1) Do my 2000th jump 2) Avoid letting anyone I jump with know that its my 2000th jump. 3) Avoid being pied (see goal #2) 4) Do my 1000th tandem jump 5) Actually go "Dirt,Water,Dirt" 6) Get video of goal #5 7) Buy nothing skydiving related this season except jump tickets. 8) Buy a new RV 9) Go to Rantoul in my new RV 10) Play atleast 1 full round of golf (will be 1st time in 4 years) -- My other ride is a RESERVE.

Thats sweet dude, thank you. I will definitely let her know. We've been planning on going out to AZ to go to Eloy late this year. Maybe we can work something out for her to get recurrent. (Or if you come back here for vacation, I'll see if we can borrow a 172 from new our neighbors........

Thats great Jeff. Congrats again. Perhaps we'll cross paths at a bonfire sometime and you can fill me in on the details, sounds way cool. Mary said to say hi too and wishes you well. (She's totally jealous, she went to DWC to become a pilot and then went operations after her 1st year. She has per private license, but is like 2 years uncurrent). Take care bro, Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE.