willard

WHOOOSH.... Must have been past your head. You must have read that "logic" from a text book. You do realize your comparison was off track, right? Maybe you need more time to think about it.

Situation "A". People with known terrorist affiliations are known to be living in the U.S. Some of them are taking flying lessons, but seem to have liitle interest in small planes, only how to fly commercial airliners. Others are taking trips across the country for no apparrent reason. The agencies watching them are highly suspicious that a plot is underway against the U.S., but have no evidence other than their observations. They decide not to take the men into custody. These men later kill almost 3000 people in a terrorist attack. Situation "B" A man with known terrorist ties has just returned to the U.S. from an extended stay overseas where he underwent training at a terrorist camp (there is proof of that). He is known to be in frequent contact with terrorists who are suspected of planning to build a "dirty bomb". The man is taken into custody and held without formal charges. If you HAD to choose between situation "A" and situation "B", which would you choose and why? My choice (no surprise to anyone following this thread) is situation "B". Better to violate one man's rights and save thousands. This question is posed not as debate but as a way to show your opinion. I will not disect anyones reply on this question so have at it.

Actually no. I do think it is likely that Padilla did something wrong - namely the things he has been charged with. So far no one has been shown even a shred of solid evidence that there was ever a dirty bomb plot. Do you still believe that Saddam had an active program producing WMD's before the invasion? Do you still believe that all the prisoners released without charges from Gitmo after so many years must have been held there for a reason? I ask you the same question I posed Billvon... if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested? There had to be at least some circumstantial evidence that he was involved or they wouldn't have even known the guy existed.

Seems we have made a circle in our discussion. "Because they had no evidence." Then why did they arrest him?

INTRO LOGIC DEMONSTRATION #1: Kallend: "Here's a similarity between A and B." Willard: "There's no similarity. I'll prove it by showing a difference!" And this concludes our lesson in introductory logic. Wrong. Kallends claim was that Stanin's gulag and Gitmo are run pretty much the same way. I showed that they are not, that there are fundamental differences, therefor they are NOT run pretty much the same way. Kallend is wrong on that point, but I don't expect an admission. Sure there are similarities. There are similarities between Stalin's gulag and the local dog shelter, the local police station, the detention room at the local high school. Doesn't mean they can be said the be run the same way. (of course I may be wrong. Does your high scholl principal execute people for cursing at him?) Your attempt at logic is off track.

I wouldn't say "no idea". Obviously they have some evidence or they would not have picked him up, right? Unless you think they just grabbed him at random from the airport. U.S. agencies watching terrorist activities noticed him, checked him out, saw what he had been doing, investigated further and decided he was a serious threat to national security. That is the type of evidence I would expect the gov. to have on him. As I said before, why they haven't tried him on those charges yet is a question I don't have an answer for. You are expecting me to say I was wrong, that Padilla should have been let go or not arrested at all. But that's not going to happen. I feel the government has done the right thing and I will not apologize for feeling that way. You are free to disagree with me.

Because they have had 5 whole years to build a dirty bomb case against him. Because it is very embarrassing for the government that he is not being charged for that crime. Because being able to try and convict him on dirty bomb charges right now would do a lot to vindicate their unconstitutional treatment of him. Show me the documents that prove Padilla plotted to plant a dirty bomb. You like documents, right? That's an aweful lot of speculation as to why he has yet to stand trial on those charges. Yeah, I like documents. But I will admit that I don't have access to the ones proving his guilt. I, unlike you, have at least a moderate amount of faith in our government and trust that they have enough evidence to prove those charges. Why would they waste their time and resources, let alone undergo the public scrutiny involved, to arrest and hold someone who they had absolutely no evidence against? Call me naive, I know you will, but that's ok. I have the comfort of knowing Padilla's little bomb never got built and used. Stalin used to think that way. His gulag was a bit colder than Guantanamo, but operated much the same way. Oh really? They are executing prisoners by the thousands at Gitmo? There are taking prisoners from there and using them in slave labor camps, working them until they drop dead? We may not see eye-to-eye on much, Kallend, but even you should see that Guantanamo Bay and Stain's gulag are not comparable in any way, shape, or form.

A very easy,cheap, and sufficiently accuratte way to see just how it affects your particular vehicle is a coast down test. A long, straight, smooth stretch of road is needed. An old airport runway is great, just make sure it's no longer in use. Get your vehicle up to speed, say, 60 mph, and when reaching a mark (line on the road works, post next to the road is better) put the transmission in neutral and let the vehicle coast to a stop, keeping it as straight and smooth as you can. Very small inputs on the steering wheel. Mark where the vehicle stops. Repeat several times with your bug deflector and again without to get a good sampling. This will show what changes to the drag coeffiecient (+ or -) the deflector causes. This test is accurate enough so that if there is no noticable difference in coast down distance then you need not worry about any changes in mgp as they will be very slight. BTW, make sure your tire pressures are even left-right.

...and his shotgun next to him. Wait! That explains it! Cheney was quail hunting near the bridge and shot the tires out on the truck and causing the wreck, but that was just to cover up the damage from where he accidently shot one of the bridge supports in half. I KNEW it wasn't the fire that caused the collapse.

It was bound to happen sooner or later. And it hurt a lot less than I thought it would.

Uh...news flash for you. That's what weapons manufacturers are in business for-to make money. Don't like them choosing to go with the M-16/M-4? Jealous because somebody else is making money and not you? You are perfectly free to design a better system and market it to the US military. They are always looking for a more efficient way of dispatching the enemy.

Why would any sane or reasonable person think a person being captured or killed in war is entertaining??

Because they have had 5 whole years to build a dirty bomb case against him. Because it is very embarrassing for the government that he is not being charged for that crime. Because being able to try and convict him on dirty bomb charges right now would do a lot to vindicate their unconstitutional treatment of him. Show me the documents that prove Padilla plotted to plant a dirty bomb. You like documents, right? That's an aweful lot of speculation as to why he has yet to stand trial on those charges. Yeah, I like documents. But I will admit that I don't have access to the ones proving his guilt. I, unlike you, have at least a moderate amount of faith in our government and trust that they have enough evidence to prove those charges. Why would they waste their time and resources, let alone undergo the public scrutiny involved, to arrest and hold someone who they had absolutely no evidence against? Call me naive, I know you will, but that's ok. I have the comfort of knowing Padilla's little bomb never got built and used.

Uh, yeah..ok. You know how i feel better than I do. You know what I'm thinking yet I don't. Right. You should put those amazing ESP skills of yours to good use. You could make a FORTUNE on Wall Street. You can get lots of chicks, too. Chicks dig guys with skills!

Can you prove that? The government obviously don't think they can. What makes you think they won't? The initial charges the government had against Padilla have not been forgotten about, they just aren't part of the case he is on trial for right now.

Japanese-Americans were wrogfully kept in interment camps during WWII, no argument there. Same with the "suspected communists" in the 50s. However, there is no comparison between them and Padilla. Padilla DID spend years overseas, much of that time traing in terrorist methods. Padilla DID conspire with known terrorists to build and detonate a "dirty bomb" here in the U.S. Why didn't the govenment immediattly charge and prosecute him? I don't have the answer to that question. I'm just glad they took him into custody before he could follow through with his plans.

If they had a similar history as Padilla then yes.

Why do I get that right, but not the right to a speedy public trial if I'm a suspect like he was? Not very comforting. I'm sure you've heard of the slippery slope. This one is more like the side of a building. Lets see.... have a person running around free as a bird who had spent years training to kill people using terrorist methods and was known to be plotting such an act or... take him into custody and make sure he can't follow through. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Of course, maybe you are willing to live with a serious threat like that, but I'm not. There is another way to look at it. If he had not been arrested and had managed to follow through with his plans, then people found out the the government knew about it and did nothing, where would that put us? Sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it? (Think 9/11. Some feel the gov. should have/could have done more to prevent it) But, once again, it's all just speculation and opinion, nothing more.

It's a tough call, but in the end I think they made the right decision. The attention he would draw from the insurgents would put his fellow troops at much higher risk than they otherwise would be, not to metion the consequences if he were captured, outweigh any benefit from his being deployed. I do admire his resolve, though, in insisting he stay with his men. Perhaps someday he will get the cahnce to serve his country in the manner he wishes.

Rejoice in the knowledge that you are not alone!

Hate does no good. Half of those you hate don't know, and the other half don't care. I don't hate Bill Clinton, but I will feel the country will be a better place once he is gone. I also realize I will most likely be in the minority with those feelings and I am ok with that.

So...US citizens get due process at home, but not when driving on freeways? In the list of really crappy analogies, the right to shoot into active traffic is pretty high up on the list. Somehow I don't see it as equilivent to being jailed for years without being charged. The right to a speedy and public trial was one of the more important rights guaranteed by the Founding Fathers. So I oversimplified it for you. My point is, no matter what you want to do there is almost certainly sure to be restrictions of some kind imposed by society. The difference between your opinion and mine is just how far we are willing to let those restrictions go for the common good. Padilla's actions, when combined with his past, are, to me (and obviously others) a valid reason for holding him in a Navy brig until prosecutors could prepare a case against him. You and others don't agree with that and that is your right.

Yes I can, perhaps you missed the part of the conversation (the only part) that went like this Me - The US bombed 100,000s of innocent people You - I'm glad they did You see how that happened? I didn't say I was glad about either event, unlike you. Yeah and as I cynically pointed out pre-emptive strikes aren’t considered "starting" the war if you are the winner/US You are dead wrong on both counts. Yes, I am glad we dropped the bomb. I am NOT glad that it resulted in scores of civilian deaths. I am sure as Hell not glad that almost 3000 Americans died at WTC on 9/11 and I resent the insinuation that I am. If Japan didn't start the war with us, then who was it? Please enlighten us.

Well said, and my point exactly. We are each entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. Just because someone dies doesn't automatically make what they did in life any more acceptable. Not what I am implying at all; I happen to agree with you. I just think that there are very few deaths of any human being that are cause to celebrate. I don't think a difference of opinions (as opposed to a serial killer or child molester) is cause for me to dance on someone's grave. Don't get me wrong, I won't be out in the streets hoopin' and hollerin'. I'll just pour a shot of tequila, hold it in the air and say, "Here's to (fill in name). Good riddance" , drink my shot and that will be that. Of course it will be in the privacy of my own home so as not to disrespect others who do not feel the same way.

Well said, and my point exactly. We are each entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. Just because someone dies doesn't automatically make what they did in life any more acceptable.