maadmax

When I was younger, my mother told me to stop picking my nose, or the booger monster would come take me away. When I would misbehave, she told me that Santa wouldn't bring me presents if I was bad. If I didn't clean my room, the Easter bunny wouldn't bring me eggs to find. Starting to catch my drift? Sounds pretty familiar, huh? If you don't worship this intangible being and tithe 15% of your life earnings to the church, you're going to hell. Hmmm.... So with absolutely no evidence to back up this all-mighty being, you still claim his existence. Do you say the same for Santa and the Easter bunny? Yes I am very aware of the arguments rejecting spiritual reality because of some confused understanding of myths, fables , fairytales, and religion. If there is any hope that we can ever narrow this discussion down to the same topic you will have to possess the ability to look within yourself and recognize your spirit. If that is possible, you will soon realize that you have spiritual needs. If that were to ever happen, we could then discuss ways of fulfilling those needs. For those who understand the message of the Bible, its validation comes from spiritual fulfillment when everything else has failed. ...

This is nothing but a mythology. There isn't any evidence to support any of this. Quoting the bible does nothing to support your beliefs. Atheists are fighting a loosing battle. You have nothing to offer. Which is the pillar of your holy manifesto "from nothing to nothing". Our species can not live with that kind of a void, no matter how enlightened you claim it to be. We need to know what is right and wrong. Something or someone will always fill that void. ...

Not surprised. It does require a small degree of perspicacity to take the chaos of ones thought and form them into categorical abstract ideas. The advantage, of course, is that we can use language to communicate instead of grunts and gestures. Take heart, you can do it.

Religion isn't a natural longing, it's a learned and conditioned one like most products and services. Just as if someone isn't going to long for a Big Mac or a skydive if they didn't know they existed, they wouldn't for religion either. "Religion" is man made. I agree, it is a bunch of crap. Besides having physical flesh and blood bodies, we also have a spiritual component. As there are laws in physics and chemistry that define the properties of our physical bodies there are spiritual laws that define our spiritual being. Psychology and philosophy try to address our spiritual issues but, like religion, is man made and falls short. It is the rare person who doesn't have physical as well as spiritual needs that must be met in order to survive. ...

Reality is a rock solid unwavering state of affairs. It is only your/our perception of that reality that changes. Couldn't agree more. That is my/our quest. To find out what is real.

Then neither do you. You only have to believe or have faith in things that can't be tested/proven. Meaning one can live a long fulfilling happy life without any faith or belief.

I kept seeing people mention "belief in atheism" or if there was scientific proof of a diety's existence they'd then believe. People don't believe in atheism, it's the absence of belief as there's no scientific proof. It's sort of like saying an anarchist government or a nihlist movement. Additionally were there scientific proof of such a higher power, it would no longer be faith or belief, it would simply be knowledge and logic.

You're the one making the claim that a "spirit" is what gives man life. Please, show me any physical evidence of the "spirit." Of course there is no use , your mind is made up. The evidence that screams to me & others is ignored by you. Science is limited in what it can measure. To use our current level of scientific discovery to define ones entire reality leaves a lot of holes to say the least. Our ancestors didn't have to understand fire in order to use it, just as we don't have to understand the spirit in order to use the spiritual Wisdom God offers us. I for one can attest to its profound effect.

Nonsense. If you would like to support your response with neuroanatomical, physiological and neurological studies I would be very happy to review them. On one hand I guess you could have a point, the sensory input of a dead brain is extremely limited.

But the scientific description of the spirit is on par with the Bibles description of physics. There is no evidence of this spirit you talk about. The fact that you have self awareness and enough volition to say there is no God is evidence. Nerve tissue with a volt potential is just a piece of charged dead meat with out a spirit. Science is beginning to uravel the secrets of how the brain works, but it has no idea what gives it life. The physical body can be artificially supported, but once the spirit departs from the body the brain is dead. ...

I can't help but wonder if he was a member of some other race if you would have posted this?

QuoteIf all scientific questions were settled there would be no need for any scientific research whatsoever. That doesnt mean all scientific questions are still open. Some have a lot more verification than others. So the question is : where there is good verification, say in testing relativity to 9 decimal places. do you think belief in this conclusion is on a par with religious beliefs?/Quote No question that science gives a much better description of physics than the Bible does. But the scientific description of the spirit is on par with the Bibles description of physics. They each have their place and are not mutually exclusive. Religion has nothing to do with God consciousness. It can occasionally facilitate it, but most of the time it just gets in the way. Religion, for the most part, is just another political scam. Just like it was in the time of Christ, and He condemned it. The evidence for spiritual success is not measured by decimal points. To even suggest this means you ain't got a clue. It is measured by the joy and peace that passes understanding. If science can give that to you, please by all means publish the formula and lets all make a fortune. ...

--"Dianetics is a milestone for man comparable to his discovery of fire and superior to his invention of the wheel and the arch." — L. Ron Hubbard. WTF ?

Didn't you get that backwards? ...

I can't believe in the 21st century in the first world we are still having this argument. You can almost excuse thirld world people who have no education and long standing cultural fairy tales to base their day to day life on, but here and now in the west, there is nothing more irrelevant than the belief in a God. It's depressing. How are we to ever move forward as a race if we believe in rubbish like religion? How are we going to stop killing each other? Performing genital mutilation on young boys and girls? enforcing celibacy on leaders of cults and in so encouraging the sexual abuse of children? and then covering it up??? There is nothing good about religion. nothing. wake up believers and smell the reality of being a clever monkey on a small rocky planet. Thats all there is..... D The argument comes from to many people spouting off about things they don't have the first clue about. Your list above is a good representation of those who have no idea how faith in God unlocks the blessings and mysteries of life. But dear God they can spout like they know something. ...

Here here! The only problem is that we must find someone with out sin to throw the first stone.

Sweeeeeet. I don't know him, but slap fives with him for me next time you guys hang out! You got it. Be careful what you ask for

I find it hard to have intellectual tolerance for educated adults who identify certain non-corporeal myths for what they are - myths - and then extol the virtue of their own non-corporeal myths as "Truth" with a capital "T". Arrogance - even if spoken gently, by a decent person, with love, purity of motive, and without malice - is still arrogance. I am not surprised. We view each other with equal suspicion. I love balance, it speaks well of ones opponent. You are not lukewarm.

url "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage#Brain_damage_and_mental_changes"]Evidence strongly suggests that our personalities reside in the meat in our heads.[/url] The more we learn about neuroscience and how we make decisions, the more it appears that free will isn't completely free. Radiolab is an excellent radio show about complex topics explained in a simple manner, and in an episode on Choice describes experiments where seemingly irrelevant events impact the decision process. In one experiment, people were given either a two digit number to remember, or a seven digit number to remember. Later on they were offered a choice of two desserts, an apple or a piece of fatty cake. People who had 2 digit numbers to remember consistently chose the apple, while those with 7 digit numbers consistently chose the cake. Simple experiment, but the ramifications on free will... I have no problem with that, every decision we make is influenced by extraneous factors and then temperedy by our preconceived notions. But it is our free will that crunches all of the information to create the reality we choose to live in. ...

How does it feel to be defeated by a childish analogy?

And this is why I gave up posting in SC a while back. These discussion always end up in insult flinging, slams, "scripture flinging" tirades where all parties appear as fools (IMHO) I enjoy discussing my beliefs and exploring other people's beliefs, especially atheist & agnostics. (I grow weary discussing with "Christians" who have EVERY answer) So back to the Instructor and WS threads it is for me. O come on Steve, I enjoy reading your posts. These discussions go all over the place, just stay where you are comfortable. You always have a lot to add.

--The problem I see with this is that when people talk of God as the "creator", it is pretty much always in the sense of "creator and designer". The entanglement of God with the concept of a conscious intelligence is even deeper when you get to a personal God who even "marks the fall of a sparrow", and who has a "plan" of which we are all a part. A particle that imparts mass, or charge, or charm, has none of those properties of a self-aware intelligence. A God that is just the "uncaused cause", that started the universe in some physical sense (say, by setting Planck's constant, or by giving electrons and protons equivalent but opposite charge) and who has done nothing since, is not a God that fits with any religious concept, be it Christianity or any other faith. If you talk about a God that can plan, and manipulate events according to that plan, yet be beyond any method of physical detection, that God seems to me to be apart from Nature (i.e. "supernatural") by definition. Good points. So where do you think self aware intelligence comes from? Is it the dead end product of an infinite number of chemical reactions over 13.7 billion years? Only to return to basic inorganic matter when the universe's entropy finally maxes out? Or is it an integral part of the matter and energy that is our universe and possibly beyond(multiverses). In which case it would be eternal like the matter/energy that give it expression. And since scientists have no idea how to isolate it in a test tube, or even what it is, it may be as ubiquitous as the Higgs. If inorganic matter can spawn intelligence, I wonder what dark matter can do? On another note , you need to come out to the DZ this weekend and jump!

For you that may be the question, but not for me. I don't see any reason to believe there is any supernatural being in existence. In my opinion any belief in supernatural beings is just imagined. Why does God have to be supernatural? Anymore than quantum entanglement is supernatural. They both are very natural, just undefinable and unmeasurable. Is the Higgs boson supernatural with its infinite power to define matter? Maybe supernatural is just a term for those who are intimidated by the big picture. Covering their eyes and ears so they only see what they want to see.

So you happily describe your own beliefs as 'laughable'. Unexpected. I think you are starting to get it. Yes I constantly lay my beliefs down and laugh at them, and then I pick them up and continue on down the road. ...

atheistic rhetoric is always the same, "My beliefs are better than your beliefs, therefore I should tell you what is good for your own sake." Laughable to say the least I'm sorry, but isn't that just a description of the entire Christian religion? I wonder why you're so devoted to something you think is laughable... No it is a description of the human condition. We are all in the same type of boat just different captains and different destinations. ...