maadmax

If God is sending you pots of gold then you won't mind sending me a couple of them. As long as they don't arrive, I'll assume you're not quite telling the truth about the situation. You surprise me Quade, in this analogy pots of gold represents that which is more valuable than money, spiritual wisdom. And yes, it would be my privilege to share with you all I have, if you are willing to receive it. How about for starters: John 3:16 "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that who ever should believe in Him would not perish but have eternal life" ...

Not really. You say there are leprechauns living under the floorboards, I say there aren't. We've looked under the floorboards every day and we've not seen a single leprechaun yet. Theorietically you may say that doesn't prove that the leprechauns are never there, but practically speaking it's fairly conclusive. Have to agree, I don't have much use for leprechauns. But to make your analogy applicable to our discussion, if I kept finding pots of gold at the ends of rainbows and under the floorboards I might have to reexamine my beliefs. ...

I have no beleifs,I have reality and reality by it's very nature is provable, one does not have to beleive in reality. The fact that you are unaware of how much faith you have pumped into your construct of reality makes you a candidate for the blind faith award.

Hey, did we finally wake up? In regards to God we are on equal footing. You have your unprovable beliefs, I have mine. In my case my beliefs are empowering! What have your beliefs done for you today?

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe" Close, my point of contact with God was through the complete fulfillment of intense spiritual needs. Ones that I believe we all have if we examine ourselves honestly. The proof of Gods existence that I and others who have heard His Word have found, is in how He makes us whole.

Well, I can prove the cat is either alive or dead. I can't do that with a god. What you are talking about is a sort of "gambler's" belief in a god. People that only believe in a god "just in case" are really lying to themselves about their beliefs. It's a bit like the kid who is old enough to stop believing in Santa but still writes the letters "just in case." It's a selfish belief and not a sincere one. It appears your beliefs regarding God are based on biased assumptions with no factual support. I am not talking about the gamblers assumption. Regardless of what happens after death, knowledge of God allows one(me) to live life more abundantly in the here and now. You can only prove the cat is dead or alive by utilizing observations outside the initial conditions of your example. I can prove God is real by ulitilizing observations that are unavailable to you because of your lack of perception. And we can each feel sorry for the other. ...

If you saw a man walking around with a dead cat who believed the cat was alive, even if it brought him joy, I think a normal reaction would be sadness at the man's delusion. or in line with the analogy since you just assume God is a myth, what if you are mistaken, the cat is actually alive , the man is happy, and your sadness is just you prejudging the situation based on bias and incomplete information.

Agreed, and I am sure that happens alot. Since for the most part religion is a hierarchical social institution based on unsupportable beliefs. In my experience, spirituality is a personal relationship with God and has nothing to gain from religion. Debunking the falsehoods of religion does not lend support the atheist agenda.

I think you may be missing the point of the survey, which was not about an understanding of "reality" in a universal sense. I do think it interesting that so many people who self-identify as being very religious seem to be so lacking in understanding of the basic tenants of any religion apart from the one they follow, and even there they seem ignorant of basic facts and tenants of their own religious tradition. How can that be? Doesn't that suggest that their "faith", however deeply held, is superficial and has never been subjected to serious inspection? Of course that would be a personal matter, except for the part where their ignorance extends to the US constitution and the law. As a result they read things into the law that are not there, which on the one hand feeds their sense that there is a "war on Christianity", and on the other hand bolsters their feeling that laws should be passed to "protect" Christianity and society by restricting other religions. Actually I get and agree with the point that a lot of religious people know what they believe and don't want to be confused by the facts. The part that I don't agree with is that since confused religious people exist and some atheists know more about their religion than they do then God does not exist. ...

Eh, I have a feeling that if you do (God forbid) some day come down with a potentially fatal disease, you'll decide that all that atheistic, secular science is a better choice than theology - and will choose a doctor over a priest to treat it. Yes, I will avail myself of any medical technological advances that are available to treat my failing body. But my spirit will remain in the Hands of God. Since when did atheists and secularists have a monopoly on science?

Yeah, exactly - your content free soundbite. (And that's not a rephrasing - it's a fundamentally different statement) OK, I guess you are spent. That is all you got.

Not at all, but it was all that was needed to be better than your content free soundbite. Since you missed my point I will rephrase it for you.The questionnaire lacks any relevance concerning the reality of God. If atheists or agnostics use it to bolster their beliefs in a superior understanding of reality, then they delude no one but themselves.

Sigh & yawn. Your posts read like an official government pamphlet in Orwell's 1984. You guys must be tired, is that the best you got?

No surprise, atheists and agnostics are knowledgeable about insignificant facts. But when it comes to the important facts concerning the existence of God and His plan for a fulfilled temporal and eternal life, they are ignorant.

God will be just , and God will be fair. And God's verdict will be final. Prove it. Patience, patience, your proof will arrive.

True, but we often see what we want to. I challenge anybody to produce proof of God. Proof that will stand up in a court of law. (far less proof than needed for science). Quote That is kind of funny. I am sure God will have His own "court of law" and I bet it won't look anything like the mickey mouse legal system that is foisted on us here in the USA. Our legal system is set up to provide lawyers with an income totally unproportional to the service they render. God will be just , and God will be fair. And God's verdict will be final. ...

--Give it a try. It would probably be like convincing a blind person who has their eyes closed that those around them can see. They would deny eveything you told them because no matter what you said they still couldn't see. Those of us who who know God and have seen the perfect way He fits and fulfills our lives have our proof. "None is so blind as those who choose not to see" ...

When I think of god, I think of fundamentalism - & fundamentalism makes me CRINGE! Yuck! Ever consider that maybe there is more to God than the little obscure picture you were presented? Maybe this is your chance to see God for who & what He can be. And then again, maybe not.

Who's to say the buffaloes didn't conspire to secretly pull down my tree branch and very, very carefully cover their tracks? We can speculate on just about anything, but that doesn't mean it's even likely if it's an unknowable and for us never will be. Our universe is constrained and contained by the speed of light. Your analogy doesn't even come close in explaining the mysteries of the universe. We have a large number of facts surrounding the tree branch in your back yard. We don't have those supporting facts concerning the origin of the universe. To assume we do is arrogant and blind. Contrived logic to support an arrogant conclusion, there is no god but me. ...

And like that famous cat, will condense into one state or the other once discovered. +1

Nope, it's just stating a fact. It is not necessary to have a God to have the universe unfold the way it has. It is not necessary that God be absent for the universe to unfold the way it has. It's another way of saying "you gotta have faith" because there's no proof either way. It sounds like you are agreeing with me in you typical unagreeable way. I guess we can attribute that to God's quantum nature, He can exist and not exist at the same time, it just depends if we are looking for Him. ...

Let's not forget that atheists are much better looking, too. Cite Well, the guys around my office find this girl pretty hot Quick! Someone get Natalie a sammich! She's STARVING! [laugh I'm not so sure. We might need more photos. So, has there ever been a case where a "Speakers Corner" thread was moved to Bonfire? ...

Sounds to me that the holy grail of science has some mighty big holes that are only plugged with a lot of blind faith mixed with a lot of arrogance(elitism) No, the holes in science are generally plugged by the scientific method. I am all about the scientific method. It is an excellent way to uncover the truth. But to go from the M-Theory to "God is unnecessary" is pure arrogant blind faith. ...

This morning on the radio they were discussing Prof Hawkins views that physics and biology have advanced to the point where both religion and philosophy are redundant. In my view he is being narrow minded and rather elitist. Firstly - many people NEED religion to keep them sane and functioning as individuals. As my dad put it they simply aren't emotionally strong enough to contemplate the alternatives. Secondly - philosophy addresses things such as what is conciousness and some of the more nuanced side of our existence. I found it interesting how he backs up his claim that God is now unnecessary based on an untestable speculation of the M-Theory and by an unattainable Theory of Everything. And rationalized it by "well, because, there are to many variables and conditions that change things, it is impossible for one set of physical laws to be applicable to every situation," or some such crap. Sounds to me that the holy grail of science has some mighty big holes that are only plugged with a lot of blind faith mixed with a lot of arrogance(elitism). http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=3141 ...

Knock yourselves out, you will never succeed. They are succeeding, if you count number of atheists in the US as a measure of success. They are increasing (2 million in 2001 to 3.6 million in 2008.) The bigotry against them is also increasing; it will be interesting to see how that falls out. Numbers will ebb and flow, that is nothing new. Look at one of the first significant illustrations in the Bible. Lucifer tells the woman, who is God that we should be mindful of Him. Take the knowledge of good and evil and you will become god. The wisdom tales of man wanting to become god have been recounted many times through out cultures and history with the same outcome. Man looses. ...