maadmax

Our existence isn't meaningless. We're here to destroy the planet and ourselves in the process. Doing a bang up job so far... On one hand I could easily agree with you. If we were not here for a purpose we would definitely be a dead end, malignant, evolutionary disaster. I guess our major claim to fame would be that we were the cause of the 8th global extinction of the planet.

--So your evidence is you have a good life therefore there is a god and he is as you imagine him to be? So anyone that isn't experiencing a good life is because god is angry with them? Like I said before, I would not believe in the god that you believe doesn't exist either. --I have a good life, yet I don't believe in any god. There are many Muslims and Hindus that are enjoying life yet they don't believe in your god. Your evidence is lacking. I think that is great, God given freedom at its best. My evidence is those, like me, who once were lost but now have found the meaning of life abundantly. I never argue with success. If you found it and you are happy clap your hands. ...

It's not my concept of God, it's the common concept. Yours is not what is commonly believed. I have no belief in any god, so I have no god for you to reject. Your idea of god is something you imagine and has no evidence to support, just like all gods. I understand why people want to believe in gods, but I prefer to not believe in fairy tales. "Common concept" that is an interesting term. From what I know of God I doubt the definition would meet with much acceptance. There is more to evidence that what you can find written in a text book or hear at a conference. My evidence is a long rich life, the recipient of love and forgiveness, free of anger and hate, blessed with peace and joy. Up lifted every morning by the assurance that God is in control and that all things work together for good for those who love God. That is my evidence it is written in my heart. ...

--can u expand on y u came to this conclusion please "Our part in His plan obviously eludes you, since by your own admission, you don't have a clue" why? what admission? "I think if i was in his position, and actually could communicate with god (if he did actually exist) thanking him would not be my intention as god is the one letting these kids suffer in the first place. " Your words, either you are right and God doesn't exist, thus making our existence meaningless when viewed from an eternal perspective. Or God does exist, and as such is perfect, which makes His plan perfect. Which would make your criticism ignorant at best. Suffering is what we make of it, sometimes it produces the highest achievements and insights we are capable of. Maybe that is Gods purpose. --p.s some people enjoy being nice and caring, they don't just do it so god is happy with them after death. Ever hear of the word hypocrite? Jesus didn't think much of them. ...

--Don't talk nonsense. If I hit my thumb with a hammer it'll probably have stopped hurting by tomorrow, let alone a few billion years time - but I'm still careful when I'm putting in nails. OK, then lets jump so far into the infinite future that numbers of years have lost their significance. Does it really matter that you hit your thumb with a hammer now? --Thing don't need to be eternal to have significance; we are human beings and we work on human timescales, not geological ones or astronomical ones. Are you possibly suggesting that significance is achieved by subscribing to a higher system of norms and standards a priori, and not by being the most fittest and reporductive beast on the block? ...

You could look at it that way or you could see life as being very valuable and do your best to make the most of what time we have available. I don't see the advantage to the mysticism of deitys. Promises that are only fulfilled in death. To me it screams scam! Anytime I hear someone say 'God works in mysterious ways' I just want point out what cop out that is and how it's such a scam. You have a different concept of God than I do. I would reject your god as well. I see God as the power and intelligence that pervades the universe and beyond. "Deity" is such an antiquated term. Fellowship with God is for the here and now. The temporal benefits makes life fantastic. If it continues after death, and it will, then great. ...

--going back to the suggestion that jclalor should be thankful to god for making him a caring person, I think if i was in his position, and actually could communicate with god (if he did actually exist) thanking him would not be my intention as god is the one letting these kids suffer in the first place. If you are right and there is no God, then suffering, not suffering, caring, not caring doesn't really matter. Because when the sun explodes and consumes the earth our existence will become totally insignificant? But if there is a God. Our part in His plan obviously eludes you, since by your own admission, you don't have a clue.

That atrocious piece of fiction does not and will not ever make sense. Read a bit closer and without bias, and you will see that the "author" is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” That is one thing about the Bible I always find amazing. It reflects back what ever the reader is looking for. Regardless if its Truth or perversion. Why do atheists spend so much effort trying to debunk the existence of God? Are you afraid we are going to take over the world and then ,God forbid, maybe tell you what to do?

You may consider the outcomes of the laws of physics and chemistry to be a miracle. Most people would NOT use that word to describe them. Do you have pier reviewed documented proof for that statements. Or did you just pull it out of some dark forbidding orifice that happened to be handy, albeit a little odoriferous?

I love cheetos...I'm going to buy some. It's a miricle.(of the highest order) It's a matter of perspective. I see working with injured children as something that makes the world better and therefore a worthy endeavor. No god involved. The delusional among us consider it a miricle of the highest order. YMMV. Damn Steve, my hat is off to you. You are one hard hearted scoundrel. Tell me what gives you joy in life. Is there anything you encounter that makes you pause for just a milisecond and say wow that was special? Or are you like the Rolling Stones song that just wants to paint the whole world black?

While jcla's work is indeed highly admirable, you are seriously devaluing the meaning of "miracle". Any time love, compassion, kindness manifests itself in the world, I consider that a miracle of the highest order. Remember your origins, at one time you were just a bunch of hydrogen and helium atoms randomly bouncing around in the primordial universe.

Serious miracles? nice to see you get plural miracles, I would love to see just one of our kids have any type of miracle. Look in the mirror. You are that miracle for them. Just imagine what their life would be like if you weren't there to share their pain, and show them love and compassion.

--Mmm... I think that people's notions of atheism isn't completely accurate. Just because an atheist does not believe in a deity does not mean that he/she has no metaphysical beliefs... --For example, your view on the metaphysical workings of the universe are through a theological standpoint. You believe that an omnipotent being is responsible for creation, all that is, and afterlife. I on the other hand hold a more scientific view, seeing the universe as a vast mosaic of energy. In response to maadmax, I guess my spiritual/psychological needs are met through the exploration of quantum mechanics, consciousness, and the relation of the two. And my moral compass is guided by a sort-of karma/energy system belief that I hold. Your description would apply to the God I know. God is science, God is karma/energy, and most of all God is love. And this God reaches out to us. ...

See, and you're not a suicide bomber, right? You don't kill people and start crusades, right? Right, the only reason I responded to your question is that it seems most atheists equate faith and hope in God with a religion. Sorry if I was not in your "target" group. It was pretty obvious what you were fishing for.

I have a question for you religious folk. Let's suppose that the universe is truly governed by an omnipotent, altruistic deity. Why do you believe that your god is the god? What's to say that the millions of people that follow [insert religion here] are following a false religion and yours is the true one? Surely the universe can't be governed by Jesus, Muhammad, Krisna, Zues, etc... (Unless, of course, there's a secret cosmic league of super-friends!) And what's to say that heaven & hell away departed souls? Why not reincarnation? Or attainment of Jina? I guess my question is why are you right about your god and everyone else is wrong about theirs? Especially since there are religions dating way further back than Christianity. I am not a "religious folk" but I am a Christian. Ultimately for me it boils down to who I am and what I need spiritually/psychologically to be healed and set free. What I experienced some 30 years ago was transforming and still empowers me with everything I could ever want or imagine. If you can find what I am talking about somewhere anywhere else, I would love to hear about it. For me there is only one way. You are responsible for yourself, may you will find what I have found. And hopefully you will do much better with what ever you discover. ...

And that is also my experience. God sets the standard. He is top of the food chain. I find it laughable that someone would claim to have such a unique handle on the reality of perfection that they could judge God. If such an individual exists would they please come out of the closet and shine their light of wisdom so the rest of us may learn from and emulate them. In actual fact ignorance and arrogance confers limitless ability to overestimate ones status and abilities.

--If he was all-knowing, he would know that we would be unable to understand his intentional mistakes. If it's his intent for us to all join him in heaven, and he is omnipotent, then he should utilize this omnipotence to help us out. Being elusive and then condemning people to hell when they didn't believe in him is an asshole move, and if he did exist and this were the case, I would walk into hell with my head held high knowing that I didn't worship such a monster. It takes a truly amazing person with great insights to be able to judge God from where we sit. But I guess a short cut would be to throw in a little arrogance and presto you now are the judge of God. Maybe if you looked at God directly and not some of the misinformed people who claim to speak for god, you would see a little clearer. --Lookie lookie what I just found. Matthew 5:17-18 "Don't think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. "I have not come to destroy them but to bring about what they said. I tell you the truth, nothing will disappear from the law until Heaven and Earth are gone. Not even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will be lost until everything has happened." You can take these words out of context and prove what ever obscure point you wish to prove. Or you can view them in terms of context, background, culture, isogogics, and exegesis . Maybe you would actually understand what is going on. But hey, who am I to spoil a good rant. --So Jesus thinks that the Old Testament is legit?? What does that do for his credentials?? It makes Him a Jew, the Son of God, and the Savior of the world. ...

Maybe you should read it again. If you don't recognize the abuses some "authorities" and politicians around the world have used religion to cause evil, then I sort of feel sad for you. It sounds like all they were doing was subscribing to your view points on thought control. If we don't like what you have to say, disappear. I guess they don't like the idea of a free country either. Its not nice to piss off those in control.

Please don't start a battle with me, I have my opinions and you sound like you have your own. Leave it at the atheist boat. Hey, this is Speakers Corner we just have friendly chit chat

I guess living in a free country is not such a good idea after all huh? We need people in charge who can put the thumb on anybody who disagrees with them Damn near certain you didn't actually read what was written. I can't help but wonder about you. Do you actually know what you wrote? ...

While you could say that the illness is what killed them, what about the extremists that believe in prayer as the only medicine? Allowing children with diabetes to die a cruel death while they prayed. I don't hate religion or religious people, I hate how religious people interpret their religious texts and use whatever words to justify whatever harm they wish to bring upon another person, indirect or not. You sound like a good person in touch with reality, I don't know. But I am just curious. I understand and agree with your disapproval of someone who harms their children because of arrogant presumptions of Gods will. But are you equally enraged by people who allow their babies to be dismembered and killed without anesthesia prior to their birth?

These are the types of things that piss me off. So I guess living in a free country is not such a good idea after all huh? We need people in charge who can put the thumb on anybody who disagrees with them. Is it possible you may be way to worked up. What is True will remain what is false will eventually fade away. Life is good.

"For those who understand the message of the Bible" --Ok, so which message exactly? For starters "Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free" & " Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life." (... and much much more :) --Everytime I would start to use reason and logic to evaluate, the voice of guilt would quickly cause me to stop in my tracks and not finish the thought process. Welcome to the world of religion. In the light of Truth there is no guilt, and all things are up for questioning. --Finally one day I said fuck it and realized that if my beliefs were in fact true, than that's where reason and logic would lead me. Good for you, I am sure it was high time you did. --Have you thought it through, or is that guilt stopping you in your tracks the second you even think about investigating the possibility that your beliefs may not have any validity. All the time, I read everything I can get my hands on. Dawkins makes good points about religion but is totally blind to true spiritual wisdom. I still enjoy trying to follow their logic until it fizzels out. With guarded reservations, I usually agree with most of what they say about religion, up until their conclusions about spirituality of course. --The natural universe is so much more amazing that the way it's depicted in religious fairytales. Absolutely, what do you know we agree on something. And spirituality is much fuller and richer than any atheist can possibly imagine. ...

That is not my intent. Any more than country clubs, or the democratic party is for losers. I am saying, it is not for me.

Quote>Atheists are fighting a loosing battle. But apparently are winning overall. Here in the US, the "no religion" segment is the only segment growing in piolls. No religion 1990: 8.2% No religion 2001: 14.1% No religion 2008: 15% http://livinginliminality.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/aris_report_2008.pdf Quote I am sure that is true for now. But I get the feeling we are in a period of transition. In some/most European countries it appears that the "no religion" crowd is dying off and a new group of people are quietly emerging. The next 50-75 years should be interesting. Some speculate the US is not far behind. ...