Royd

Why would god require that Jesus die to save you all? Why not just grant forgiveness and save Jesus the torture? It goes back to the Old Testament system of sacrifices that God set up for the Jewish people to atone for their sins on a daily or yearly basis. The sacrifices could not have any physical flaws. The Bible speaks of a final sacrifice for all mankind, which is Jesus Christ. He had no sin, therefore he was the perfect sacrifice. If I were to put it in human terms, let's say that you are guilty of a crime. The judge tells you that if you want to go free you must find someone to do your time. So you show up with a fellow criminal and the judge says,"Sorry, he owes a debt for his own crime, find someone who has no crime."That's the only way that the debt could be paid honestly. If the Scripture is true, Jesus loved all of mankind enough to take their penalty upon himself. The caveat is that you must believe and accept the sacrifice for your sin. If you refuse, basically, you have spit in the face of perfect, pure love.

Let's be honest. There's not a charity or non profit organization, religious or secular, that doesn't want to operate without state of the art facilities or equipment. Since Jesus never existed how can he be part of your argument?

Can you say Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung?

When I heard the Gospel preached straight forward I knew that it was true. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why? We are all sinners, i.e. liars, cheaters, thieves, desiring things that belong to others, including their wives or husbands, on and on. Basicallly, we are criminals at heart. If you ever got paid for 8 hr. of work, and only worked 7 hr. you are a thief, plain and simple. We generally hire a lawyer to mediate our case for us, partly because he knows the law, and partly because he may find favor with the judge. Jesus is not only our mediator, he also had enough compassion for us that he was willing to take our punishment upon himself. If it's true I have gained everything. If not, then what have I really lost? For you, life is only a short 70 or 80 yrs. I'm well on my way to get that far.

Please post your commandments of absolute morals so that we will never have to wonder what they are. God did that.

Or maybe they died from a heart attack or stroke brought on by some new fangled chemical concoction that was supposed to be a cure all. The same way that you believe that there is no god. BTW, my life is not restricted by the fact that I believe in a god. If I were a liar, thief, or a whoremonger, then I might be bothered.

You didn't give your age, so I'm guesssing early 20's. My last relationship which was in the mid 90's, left me in a serious depression for at least 3yr. To this day, there are repercussions of it in daily life. Not in my personal happiness, but in a give a flip attitude about alot of things. I'm 53 btw. That said, you must come to the reality that you donot own her, and she doesn't own you. It sounds as if you view her as prize. Relationships are at their best when both parties seek the other's welfare above their own, but it has to be a two way street. I hope that your life consists of more than bowing at the feet of a beautiful woman. Stay sober until the anger and jelousy recedes, and don't screw up someone else's life with a rebound relationship.

Your point of veiw, or those of the atheistic thinkers in this thread is that we have morals built into our DNA through evolution. No need for any outside guidance or correction. I would dare say that alot of gangbangers scoff at religion and the need for any kind of moral structure concerning the society around them. You sure don't see the edification of lives or property in places where these people exist.

Unless your name is Gengis Khan. In other words, someone must have a wrestling match with themselves, so to speak, in order to lie, cheat, or steal, even if no one has ever taught them good from bad? Prison rehabilitation should consist of telling someone to look inside themselves and do the right thing.

There's always a first time.

If the end result turned out to be useful to him, no problem. Do you really think that students of Divinity only study one book? I was raised Catholic. At the age of 17 I was done with it simply because the rituals made no sense to me. From then, until the age of 30 I chased pleasure. At the end of the day, as the writer of Ecclesiastes says,"It is all vanity." One Sunday I just deciced to go to a church. I think it was an Assembly of God. When I heard the Gospel preached straight forward I knew that it was true. As I said earlier, my study is to strenghten my faith, not to tear it down. Kind of like you reading a book from a fellow atheist and saying, "Yea, that works for me." Please read your statement out loud to yourself. I believe that you stated that your brother flys airplanes. Are these model airplanes or the real thing? No thinking involved there.

They are not claiming to be morally superior due to evolution. They are homosexual, pedophile, con men, who use their position of authority to get what they want.

To the Dutch, that thinking is so yesterday, and they are on the cutting edge of moral superiority.

I am a member of one of the largest SB churches in the nation and have always been encouraged to study the Scriptures for myself. I come from a position that Jesus Christ actually existed and much of Old testament history can be verified. Jews still exist, the last time I heard. There was a King Saul, King David, King Solomon, and a place called Babylon, run by a fellow named Nebuchadnezzer.

So what makes you think that he would be swayed by the great, overwhelming logic of atheistic thinking. This life is all you get, then you die like a dog. I can see why everyone wants to get aboard your train.

Somebody forgot to convey this message to a whole lot of gangbangers.

BRAVO,BRAVO!

Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How do we suddenly[remember, evolution takes millions of years] go from considering the life of an unborn child to be a precious thing to something that we can throw in a trash can by the millions, in only two or three generations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bizarre argument. Our attitudes are the same as they always have been - out of sight, out of mind. The only thing that has changed is our ability to safely and reliably perform abortions. QuoteI'm using abortion as an example simply because it fits the bill of someone having to twist their thinking in order to convince themselves that there's nothing wrong with it. I could use any number of examples. The problem is that with some people when the guilt for what they have done, no matter what it is, begins to eat at them,instead of owning up to it, saying it was wrong, and it will never happen again, they find someone who has done the same thing, and form a group of sorts, in order to assuage their guilt.

If morality were an innate quality, there should never even be a need for such discussions as this. We would do the right thing at all times. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. We actually have an inner conflict which a person's eyes must be opened up to. The Law of God is written in our hearts[minds], but as fallen beings we are naturally rebellious and want to do what we want, when we want without regard to the consequences. You never have to teach a child to do the wrong thing. Your argument is that through the passage of time we have observed that society functions smoothly under certain conditions and it has become part of our DNA. We have no need for moral or religious teaching. I say that each generation needs a smack down from the one before them in order to ingrain the rules of civility. I believe that common sense and the Bible will bear me out. It only takes one generation deciding that the rules don't apply to them[moral relativity] to screw up future generations.

Your argument is that we have evolved to the point where morality is ingrained in our very essence. We have no need of a higher authority, whether it be the Law of God or the Law of the land. We will do the right thing. How do we suddenly[remember, evolution takes millions of years] go from considering the life of an unborn child to be a precious thing to something that we can throw in a trash can by the millions, in only two or three generations. By making a choice that goes against this ingrained goodness tells me that we have a free will to choose the path that we take. This also tells me that morals must be taught from parent to child generation after generation. If the cycle is broken, society starts to become dysfunctional. We now have people who don't give a second thought about stealing some elderly person's life savings with the click of a mouse. Sounds to me like someone spared the rod during the formative years.

was actually hinting at the millions of abortions . . . Are you telling me that with the millions of years of development, that we [especially women] do not yet have an innate desire to protect the unborn? Are you saying that, knowing or making a decision about right or wrong simply has to develop over eons of time? The act of an abortion for the sake of convenience, whether desired by the woman, or encouraged and coerced by the man[the guilt should be placed where it belongs] takes a hardening of the heart i.e. the conscience. If morality were an innate quality, there should never even be a need for such discussions as this. We would do the right thing at all times. Religion aside, if a parent isn't giving a child guidance, they will be running amuck in no time. You only have to watch such shows as Wife Swap, or Super Nanny to see the results of children who have been allowed to have free rein of their lives. You have 5yr. olds controlling the tempo of the household, or you have teenagers coming and going with no restrictions or responsibilities. I put the blame for the desire to destroy the moral code that has been used for centuries squarely on the liberal socialists, who think that the idea of a god is an affront to their personal freedom.

I was actually hinting at the millions of abortions since the 70's for the sake of convenience. They surely weren't all for the sake of rape or incest. This is an example of relative moralism at its finest, which also goes against the evolutionary thinking of furtherence of the species.

Would protection of the most innocent, most vulnerable amongst us be one of those morals?

So why are there so many thieves and liars out there?

Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen something? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is a lie, and why is it wrong? What is stealing, and why is it wrong? Who says it's wrong, and why should I believe them? Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have you ever ever taken the Lord's name in vain? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you truly believed that neither God not Jesus Christ ever existed, why would those words come out of your mouth as a curse word. Why not use Satan's name, or even you own father's name?