Royd

Thank you for posting. There are some true patriots left.

Athiests would deny the existance of both, simply because they can't figure it out, or they can't abide submission to something that is more powerful than them. But they did recognize the concept that man in himself is not the end all/be all.

Maybe I've just been influenced by watching old westerns, but my impression is that Native Americans recognized that they were just part of an integrated system that depended on everything else for survival. They also seemed to have a great sense of spirituality. Do you prescribe to any of your ancestors belief?

You mean sort of like the teachers forcing the first graders to put their new box of 48 Crayons, pencils and paper into a community box, and tell them that they no longer own them, because some other kid's parent could only afford a 24 count of Crayons. No socialistic brainwashing there.

>As for the moon sustaining life, I can jump out of an airplane, and land >safely on my feet. Wrong. Twelve Americans survived a journey into space, being kept alive in a closed system. They just happened to land on the moon. Had they, for one instant been separated from their artificial environment they would have died. I have also survived several jumps from airplanes, just not without equipment that allowed me to survive. I know that had I presented your argument, you would have come back with the same counterargument.

So you completely discount your ancestry's notion of a Great Spirit?

QuoteObviously no-one is going to say that Venus as it is right now could come close to sustaining our kind of life, but if it was a little bit further out and if its atmosphere was a little different... [/reply First, thanks to everyone for the thoughtful, underogatory posts. I appreciate it. Wouldn't it be a boring world though, if we all just nodded our heads and said,"Yes, that's the way it is."? Now, back to Venus, you have confirmed my statement that all conditions must be perfect for life. If Venus contained the exact same makeup as Earth sans life, but remained in its same orbit its still too hot. If we put it into the proper orbit, but the surface conditions are not favorable, it's still useless. I just believe that the odds are fantastically huge. If I were to take a ton of marbles, mark two of them, put them into a cannon, require that these two marbles land a prescribed distance from each other, then shoot them into the air, what would the chances be of actually succeeding at the task?

>What were the other two planets? Jakee post #248 said there were two planets in our solar system besides Earth that come close to being able to sustain life. Maybe I should ask him. As for the moon sustaining life, I can jump out of an airplane, and land safely on my feet.

So, when it's all said and done, Mars really doesn't have the ability to start or sustain life? What were the other two planets?

Regardless of what happens to me personally and how I deal with it, the final result will be the same. I would say that each orbit around the sun is pretty much a carbon copy of the year before. It's not a free hand etch a scketch. So is the earth or the sun or physics in general, responsible for global warming? > I thought water was a constant, regardless of its form. How can it just disappear? As much water as the mock ups showed on Mars, if it had evaporated there would be large quantities of clouds. There aren't. Water can't simply disappear. It takes another form. I did pay attention in the 4th grade.

The ellipse is perfect in order to achieve its intended goal, ice ages, global warming, another ice age, no dinosaurs stomping through my backyard. It all comes together in one, nice flow. We are working on the assumption that everything has to be a duplicate earth in order for life to sustain itself. It really doesn't matter the size of the star, the orbit would have to be the perfect distance depending on the solar output. >Hell, we have two planets right here in our own solar system that only >just barely missed out on having our conditions . . . Good point. That tells me that it is likely that there are others like that. >and there are uncountable trillions of other solar systems out there. >But, they did miss the boat. Based on the evidence around me, I'm going with, there is not, nor has there ever been life on another planet in our solar system. >I just saw an article where some scientist believes that there were huge >oceans on Mars at one time. They just disappeared. I'll call BS on that >one. How about you? I love it. How long has this article been out? You buy it without a head scratch. I thought water was a constant, regardless of its form. How can it just disappear? Oh, I know. The magic man in the sky!

One step at a time! You'll get there.

Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basically, said planet must be another earth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's an odds thing.Considering that we seem to be in a perfect orbit around a small star, a perfect combination of elements, atmosphere and even the tipping on its axis to properly refrigerate each hemisphere in turn, not to mention the symbiosis[see, I know some big words, too]of plants and animals that could not continue to exist without each other, what would be the chance of all of the pieces of the puzzle falling together in any given solar system with a star ten times the size of the Sun? But, they did miss the boat. I just saw an article where some scientist believes that there were huge oceans on Mars at one time. They just disappeared. I'll call BS on that one. How about you? BTW,Your point of view sounds more like faith to me, with every post.

Just remember that unless you do tunnel flying regularly, we are the only sport, except maybe rodeo, that has such a short time to practise techniques. I have over 200 jumps, just got my new RW suit, and am just starting to work on leg turns. When you break the skydive down into its many parts, considering that I'm jumping with 4 or 5 other jumpers, and that the total success of the dive is most important, I may have ten seconds to concentrate on the technique.

If someone tells you to cork the winder next to the chimley, where would they be from?

Do you? Oh, it's possible that other planets have these same elements, but based on the parameters established here, all other conditions must be perfect. Proper position from its given star, proper mixture of all necessary elements. Basically, said planet must be another earth. As for explaining my big bang experiment, I'm sorry that you didn't get it. It's about the odds of all conditions being perfect on any given chard flying through space after the Big Bang. Generally, explosions create nothing but a mess. Earth seems to have everything pretty well ordered.

They wouldn't hear the message either, after they'd been lulled to sleep by some of the mundane crap on PBS. Who they gonna blame then?

So I can take a gallon of sterile water, put it into a sealed container inside of a vacumn and life is eventually going to spring forth? Life must exist for life to continue. After that, all conditions that this life form needs to exist must remain constant or it will not thrive. What's that survival rule about air,water, food? Let's perform a little experiment using the Big Bang. We will get a large container with the ability to shatter. We will fill it full of explosives, blow it up and then try to find two pieces that perfectly match each other. My underdeveloped scientific brain says, don't bet your paycheck on it. Now, let's add a little more complexity to this experiment. We will require beforehand, that one chard must match certain dimensions perfectly. Now, back to Earth. How did this one miniscule chard, which came from the same container as the rest of the chards, wind up with all of the good stuff? I'll bet that the moon is feeling like a redheaded stepchild?

Had you been in Fl. I would have told you to skip Disney and go to Bucsh Gardens.

What was the question? BTW, without all of the BS, this would be a dead thread.

Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right about his making the claims, but I think his point cuts both ways - proving God is on par with proving life on other planets or how the Universe began or how life on this planet began. All require a high degree of faith. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, but I was called a dumb ass for not spouting the party line about the Big Bang. What's the difference? You mean such as the possibility of life on other planets or in other solar systems? Thanks for making my point.

You, on the one hand, say that there is no God and dare us to prove you wrong. We can't. I challenge you to prove that Earth is not the only planet in the universe that can support life. You can't. I come as close to proving my argument as you do. So, I'll believe, by faith, that everything was created with a set purpose in mind, and you can believe, by faith, that everything, including yourself, is nothing more than a huge cosmic accident. Sort of like a homeless guy with no shoes, stubbing his toe on the largest gold nugget in the world.

Re: [Royd] Religion: Why do you care? by jakee Post: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To say, on the one hand, that one is arrogant to believe the Earth is the only planet in the universe that contains life, but then give a shoulder shrug as to whether the universe is finite or infinite is hypocritical. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say that you operate on logic and facts. That which you can see, touch or taste. You also say that faith is a wasted function of the mind and you always say we must prove that God exists. You say that there is no way, in all of the planets of all of the stars that we are the only one which possesses life. Sounds like faith to me. I am now taking your position. So far, we haven't found life elsewhere. Either life can establish itself in conditions different from this Petri dish called Earth or it can't. If it can, and I'm using the timelines people quote in here, in the billions of years that the universe or universes have existed it would have already happened somewhere. I say we are the only ones out there and I would like for you to prove me wrong. Also, if you believe, or have an inkling of thought that I am wrong, you are doing so by faith. I say that faith, sans religion, is a natural conditon of the human phsyche. Even the most disciplined scientist gets into his car and drives to work in the morning believing that he is going to get there. That is done by faith.

As opposed to the "Holier than Christians" mantle that most athiests wrap themselves in?

I would like to take the time machine and travel with Lewis and Clark to the Pacific Ocean.