georgerussia

It depends on the opponent. It doesn't make any sense to elaborate my insights with an opponent who cannot tell me whether the God is omnipotent or not, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a serious discussion with an opponent who does not answer your questions, but plays with words and sermons instead (very typical with Christians). In your case you answered the question, thus we could now discuss the issue. I came up with them on my own, but I don't believe they are unique. The contradiction between omniscience and having expectations is obvious. Same as contradiction between omnipotence and having desires. Ok, let's start with omniscience. That's why I asked whether you, or another opponent, believe whether the God is omniscient. To avoid playing with words I even made an explicit definition - that the God knows everything right now (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? This is a tough question, because if you answer "yes", then a lot of things in the Bible do not make ANY sense. An omniscient creature does not have expectations, since you only have expectations when you do not KNOW how things will work. An omniscient creature does not need to wait until an atheist dies to "give him a chance to follow Christ" - it already knows whether this specific atheist will come to Christ or not. An omniscient creature knows who exactly will be sinner, and who will not be - and this includes everyone, including the people who hasn't born yet - so it doesn't need to wait until the Judgment Day. And that's only part of it. But if you answer "no", meaning the God does not know the future? First it would contradict with omnipotence, since the omnipotent creature should be able to make itself omniscient (and it would make sense). Second, this means that the God is restricted by the time at least, and the next question is - what else is the God restricted with? Third, it would invalidate all Biblical prophecies - now Christians say it's the God who predicted all those things being omniscient. But if you accept the God being not omniscient, those prophecies should belong to someone else, right? And you'll get even more problems with being omnipotent. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Fruits are not practical for long-term journey over sea. I believe they used something like pickled cabbage - easy to store (barrels), and rich of useful stuff. Not to mention the God obviously hates handicapped people, especially amputees. A water lizard (Triturus) can regenerate even an eye, not to mention body parts. God definitely loves them more than he loves humans. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I also found it funny that there are only two mammal species are unable to synthesize vitamin C - a homo sapiens and Guinea pig (Cavia porcellus). And it's not like useless thing - scurvy hurt a lot of seamen before the role of vitamin C was established. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

In other words, the God created people perfect, but with ability to do stupid things. And the God knew this ability WILL be used (because he's omniscient). So the God created people, who - he knew - would not be perfect, and now he's basically punishing everyone just because of this? So you believe a reasonable way to deal with kid's sin is to "create" another kid, and let him die? In other words, the God provided Eve with an option he didn't like her to take - but as soon as he created her he knew she would take this option. And didn't change anything (like removing the tree, or making it cactus). So he basically condoned this behavior, and then punished everyone because of this? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Here's where the trouble started. The only difference between perfect and not-so-perfect human would be the way they execute their free will. So how could you explain why perfect human Eva executed her free will in a very wrong way which is basically 100% incompatible with perfection? Your God actually created this consequence of evil act. To neutralize it he just needed to forgive Eva, that's it. But what was done looked more like my kid was told not to eat candy, but ate it. Then to forgive him we would "create" another kid, and let him die in a horrible death. Sounds stupid? It is. My point is that the moment God created Eva he knew EXACTLY what she will do, and he knew exactly that she will use her free will to eat this apple. And he did nothing to correct problems with his creation, even though it would be very easy. He did nothing. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

It depends on what he meant by "does not exclude free will". Obviously it doesn't take it away from you - i.e. you still have (or think you have) a free will. But the omniscient being should know what you do no matter how exactly you exercise your free will. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

You're saying that because you didn't open your heart, and accepted Flying Spaghetti Monster as your saviour. Otherwise you'd have no problem seeing a lot of evidence that Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, and worshipping it feels even better than sex. Probably that's because your soul is deceived by Crawling Spaghetti Monster. Beware! He'll force you to eat Big Macs after you die! * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Thank you for the straight answer. So if the God can do anything, he should be able to: - Create perfect humans; - Pardon the humanity for anything without going through Jesus thing (in fact, the whole Jesus death story does not make any sense at all then). Correct? It doesn't, but the God already knows what decision this "free will" will make, and this is part of being omniscient. For example, if I'm in the room with two doors, do you believe that the omniscient God knows which door and when I open, excercising my free will? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

That's what some Christians do. They go to Internet, log into the forums, and teach everyone else how they should devote their lives to the same God just to be saved from Hell. I feel sorry about you - I could do the same, and even more (because I'm not restricted by religion), and do not need your God for this. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

At least they don't claim they follow teachings of someone who taught them to accept even those who isn't like them, to hate sin and not sinners, and not to judge people because even his father doesn't do so until the Judgement Day. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

This is a lame attempt. I did not ask you what god is, since it's now obvious to anyone you don't know that. I am asking you questions about your beliefs, and I'll repeat them: - Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do? - Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? See? Those are very simple questions, which could be answered as "yes", "know" or "I don't know". I'm not asking you WHAT God is. You could believe it's love, it's red or it's a dick, I don't care. Just tell me whether you agree that your God or love or red or dick you believe in is omnipotent and /or omniscient as described, or you do not agree. I'll probably make it clear that the following things are completely irrelevant to the question I asked: - What couples in love think; - What problems artits who create music have; - Whether you Holy Spirit is sacred; - Whether I lie and admit it or not; and other stuff completely irrelevant to the questions asked. This is the most important question, and if you can't answer even it, then all your beliefs are groundless even for you, and everything else doesn't make any sense at all. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Imagine how surprised you'll be when Zeus sends you to Hell because you praised the wrong God. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Doesn't your wife/girlfriend cover her face when she goes outside? Some Muslims would find that insulting. Do you eat beef? Some Indians believe a cow is a holy animal, and would find that insulting. Whatever you do or not do, someone would find it insulting. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings. Let me ask you a couple of simple questions: - Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do? - Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? If possible, please give a short answer. Yes/no would be perfect. No sermons here please. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Well, I'm not pharisee, I don't suffer from invisible guilt, and I don't need a shrink. Could you please be more specific in your replies, and make it more relevant to the original quote? it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? [irrelevant stuff about love skipped] You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. The only emotion I experience is bewilderment. This is probably the weirdest possible thing to fix problems with your creation. You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. How'd you know the God is invisible? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Relax, dude. This is just an example. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

But it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Since he didn't, the logical assumption is he wanted them to do so, or at least accepted it. Well, I challenge the way YOU describe your God from the bible, not the "real God". If YOU say that the God is omnipotent and omniscient - you're saying that the God cannot learn anything, since he already knows everything by definition of omniscient. If you say the God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient (so far no one said that), then we'll get other questions to ask. As you see, your problem starts even with your definition of God. Your beliefs do not matter in terms of applicability. And your testimony is not valid, since you have no proof you're following righteousness - and therefore you're making a conclusion in your testimony. All you could testify is that you do something, and it feels good; same might be applicable as well to other things. Again, I'm challenging your definitions, not the "real God" (who works in misterious ways, and therefore it is not possible to understand him at all). With your definition it's simple - either we were created perfect (and therefore should be), or we were not (and therefore God should blame himself). First, I'd like to make it clear I'm good and I'm not guilty. If you don't think you are, it's your problem. Don't make it everyone's problem. The whole "sent Jesus" thing sounds like absolute bullshit if you consider the God omnipotent. If he wanted any change, being omnipotent he could implement the change right away, the same second. Why would he need to send anyone and wait? If you're supporting the Jesus thing, you're supporting the fact that your God is not omnipotent, and there are some higher rules he has to obey to make things happen. Then the next question would be, who could set up rules your God needs to follow? The principles in driver handbook prove to be true for everyone who's driving a car. Does it mean that the driver handbook is full of righteoness, and should be used as a guide to live ethernal life (or even to skydive)? So you finally agreed that there is no God unless you believe in it? Voila!!! * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Like what? There was a study published in Russia when they thought about relaxing gun control laws. It said that after the guns become available for self-defence, the crime statistics changes in the way when the chance of confrontation with a criminal is much less - i.e. we have less robberies but more burglaries. Note that guns could only prevent very limited types of crimes - the gun cannot help in preventing itentity theft or fraud. And of course the gun will not help you if you're a target for a killer - it didn't help assassinated Mafia leaders with all their security either. Therefore it's very hard to find data to compare to. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I'd wait until you state your opinion. It really doesn't make any sense to guess what you are trying to say by pointing out this particular case. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Why should you be sorry? That's the way your God created the people. And he's obviously fine with this, and he does not punish anyone. There is something really wrong with your logic. An omniscient creature CANNOT learn anything. It already knows everything by definition. Just take a look on driver handbook of your state. It is much, much less ambiguous than your Bible. There is no "truly righteous thing" in this world, because there is no definition of such thing everyone would agree. Not at all. Either I was created righteous (and this way I was born righteous), or I was not created righteous (and this way the God shouldn't blame me). Then the bible is wrong. The God does not need a plan. If he's omnipotent, and he controls everything, he does not need to wait until "next life". He could change whatever he wants right now. Moreover, since the God is omniscient, he already knew long time ago what exactly would have happened, and that his current plan would not work. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Yes, " If two or more are gathered in my name I will be there." You missed my question. I didn't ask whether Jesus promised to be there. I asked whether he was there. Did anyone see him and could confirm it? We already established that if someone prayed Jesus and healed, you Christians say it as a proof Jesus exists. But if someone prayed Jesus and died, you Christians say he was "putting God into test", and should not expect anything. Which makes the testimony useless. Basically all they could really testify is that they prayed Jesus, and recovered from alcoholism. I could testify that I jumped out of the airplane at 14K, prayed Odin, and was safely on the ground in five minutes. Neither example proves the existense of Jesus or Odin. As far as I remember, the most difficult thing and the most important step for any substance abuser is to admit it. After that, when a person understands they have a problem, and ready to put some efforts to fix it (otherwise they wouldn't be present on AA meeting), they do not need any Jesus to help them. Unfortunately your own study is very limited in terms of applicability. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Honestly I don't see your point. Hafizullah Amin was protected by armed forces, including elite guard, and still was shot dead. JFK was also shot dead having something more for protection that a bunch of unarmed rifles. While having a gun available might reduce your chance to being shot dead, but would not gurantee you would not. Nothing would. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I wonder whether clear reasons would include "national security" and "protect our children", the most abused reasons for everything around. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I fail to see your logic here. How the god could be love? Could he also be liquid, heavy, solvable? Could he be weeping, peeing, peeking, or jerking off? This is kinda stupid assumption that the majority of people on this Earth have problem with mercy and love just because they don't give shit about Jesus. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Everyone is judged by the combination of their actions, not just a subset. We know about the priests who fucked the children once a while, and did some good things the rest of the time. We however still consider them criminals, and punish thed. And the fact they also did some good things didn't change that. Same with your biblical God. What has been done looks like a huge mess. The Bible, which was "created" as the most important guidance for righteouness, was a catastrophic failure. It is so ambiguous and misguiding that even Christians themselves cannot agree on a single Bible interpretation - and they tend to disagree on rather important things, which are critical for salvation. Thus the only available "evidence" does not pass any credibility tests - in fact even imperfect humans create much better guidelines than the one allegedly created by your perfect God! Since - according to you - the God created us all, and this includes our ability to learn things, he should blame himself for that. For example, if I create a program to play chess, and it does not, that's me - the creator - to blame. Not the computer which carefully executes the program I created. Thus your whole "last chance to learn" does not make any sense at all. If your God wanted people righteous, why don't he created them this way that everyone is born righteous? Should not be difficult for omnipotent creature. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *