georgerussia

Well, not really. In fact, a lot of Abkhasian/Southern Ossetian got their passports illegally. There are two types of passport in Russia - the internal passport used only inside the country (valid till you reach 20 or 45, then needs to be replaced), and foreign passport for traveling aboard (valid only for 5 years). A Russian consulate was not legally allowed to issue internal passports - only the Ministry of Internal Affairs was. But Ministry of Internal Affairs has no jurisdiction on foreign territory either. Nevertheless, a lot of Abkhasian/Southern Ossetian still got internal Russian passports from the consulate. It made news in 2001, but the story was quickly shut down. Most of them still keep internal passports. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Yes, it might. I just wonder why? It's not like you gonna be anathematized because of voicing your pro-opinion. Maybe it is because it doesn't look "morally right", and therefore affects the "good Christian" self-image :P But why vote at all then? The second one. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I'm comparing posts in this thread vs poll results in the same thread, not just some abstract "results of the polls on this site". And the poll results say that over 50% of those who read this thread voted for abortion. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Do you wonder how many lives were snuffed out that would have contributed so much PAIN to this world? It's actually funny that although most posts in this topic are anti-abortion, the votes show exactly the opposite results. Hypocrisy? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

??? I've got an impression that every hospital in Santa Clara and San Mateo counties run some sort of free "quit smoking" program. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

It's also present in human milk as well: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/70/3/383 * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Wow, that's a nice video! * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Yes, it could indicate the ignorance of those who wrote the Bible, or lack of communication between them. It should be obvious that the omnipotent and omniscient creature cannot have desires, cannot "hope" for something to happen and cannot "plan". And to be not "ignorant of His ways" you must "accept" everything written in the Bible, as Truth, correct? And then you won't need any questions answered, since you already accepted it? Some time it needs the whole paradigm being changed. This is not a problem for science, as there are no dogmas written in old books. Everything is based on the actual evidence, and when you discover new evidence, the things are changed according to it. It's not the same for the God, however. Every time scientists find a new evidence, Christians either twist the Biblical "interpretation" to match it without actually changing their dogmas, or they just ignore the evidence altogether. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Exactly like your own Heaven, but with gay Jesus. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Not exactly. I've tried to make the following points: - The God is directly responsible for behavior of his creations, and knew it in advance. Therefore logically he should carry at least some blame, if not all. I'd also say he should definitely carry more blame than me or you, since we weren't even present there. - Because the God was responsible for creating this mess, it was his duty to clean it up, not ours. Saying that God loves us because he did something to fix this mess is the same that saying that a janitor loves us because he cleans the streets. - If the God need to follow some rules to "compensate" the Adam sin, and had to go through pretty complex routine for that, this means there is someone else above Christian God, which they say there is none. This is just a short example of built-in contradictions in the Christian beliefs. The only reply they could give us is famous "God works in mysterious ways", and we should not try to see any logic in the God's actions. But here's the catch: this way they should stop telling anyone what they should (or should not) do. They can't say for sure that being gay is a sin, or won't let you be saved. After all, God works in mysterious ways, so it's reasonable to guess that only gays will be in Heaven. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Our discussion was not about what YOU need or what YOU believe (and to be honest, I don't give any shit about it). The discussion was to point out the failed logic in fundamental Christian teaching - that the God allegedly created Adam perfect, and the God needed to put Jesus into death to "balance" (???) sins. In this discussion what you personally need or believe is completely irrelevant. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

My question was "what do you mean by access to Gods perfect value system?" Not what the system was. How do you define this "access"? How a value system could ever been accessed? What for? The issue discussed has nothing to do with your experience or trust! So you agree that what has been done is considered meaningless by any common sense, and the only explanation you could bring is that "God works in mysterious ways"? The way the person behaves greatly depends on how they were taught. A serial rapist and someone who spent their life volunteering were born with exactly the same free will. Basically what creates a character is the parents teachings, and the surrounding society. Their "parent" was God, and they allegedly had perfect society. As you see, it's clearly the God screwup. Could you please look again on what I wrote? Either you didn't understand what I said, or you replied to someone else. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

What do you mean by "access to Gods perfect value system"? Is it the value system humans shared, being created with it? How exactly they did have this access? This is completely meaningless statement if you look on discussed facts. The God created those sinners, and knew his creation would behave this way. Did nothing to prevent it. The God actively created those consequences as well. If he did have any love, he could have acted much faster. So you're saying there is a "sin accounting system", and because of this all the sins must be balanced? This would mean this accounting system is above your omnipotent God (otherwise he could just change it or eliminate it completely). Do you agree? Then it's clearly the Creator fault. The way a person uses her free will is based on their knowledge and experience. Both Adam and Eve were just created, had no experience and all their knowledge was "embedded" into their brains. Therefore it's clearly God's fault for not teaching them good enough. They did not get a chance to learn anything themselves. This is where your logic faulted. Where those "values of their own making" came from? They did not have other people to observe, nor they had books to study. How could you get another set of values if you never heard about those things? Just imagine you would like to make yourself a deity; so what you gonna do? You do not know! Then you meet me, and I'm telling you that to become deity you need to eat poison oak. Now what your current (God-like) value system says? It should say "you should not become deity", right? So you just ignore what I say. But if it says "well, let's try it, no big deal" - this means the God's value system is the same, and it needs to be blamed, not Adam&Eve. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Similar thing has been already called a "HUGE RED HERRING" right here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2793653;search_string=grandmother;#2793653 Yet another thing for law enforcement and stupidity groups to "protect our children" - after all, the artist is here, easy to catch, and - unlike real criminals - won't use /armed/ violence against a police officer looking for retirement. Very similar to "fight drugs" by arresting pot smokers. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I would suggest that it doesn't make any sense for you to use yourself as example for someone who does not share your beliefs. It will be as useless as showing how Christ improved your life by your own testimony that you recovered from bad flu after praying Christ. If another person does not believe in Christ, your testimony would not make any sense, and if they do, they do not need your testimony. Also it's conclusion - although after spending a couple of days discussing things with a couple of hardcore Christians I understand that at least some of you guys completely lost the ability to tell the difference between facts and conclusions. What could you replyl the person, who points finger to the tree, and says "this is proof that God exist". It's funny though that they do not accept the same tree as proof that aliens are abducting people. Twisted logic, as you see. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Please explain what the word "reality" mean in the quote above. Were humans omnipotent and omniscient? Were they "nowhere and everywhere"? What exactly was lost? Well, I could argue about it. First, "we" did not fall. The person who fell was the God direct creation. Even parents feel responsible for what their children do. But your God not only was irresponsible, he actually BLAMED his creations for being created not the way he liked! It is not possible. For example, the God had the choice - either create this tree in Edem (as everything was created by God, right?), or do not create it. The choice he made directly affected the "free will". Because we have a single time scale, and in any single moment you and I will be doing a single thing. For example, I'm thinking whether I should go skydiving on Sat, or should not. Between those two I could only choose one - even though I obviously have free will. But you cannot BOTH go skydiving, and do not go skydiving. Hope this explains why your "free will" is not free, and is absent for anyone with foreknowledge. No, the knowledge itself doesn't. But the situation is unique: 1. We have an omnipotent and omniscient God who just created a couple of people. Since they didn't grow up with parents, we could safely assume the God put some knowledge in their brains during creation - after all, they didn't learn to communicate (in terms of language and vocabulary) themselves, right? 2. Now you're claiming the God didn't want them to touch this tree. Since the God was the one who created those people, and educated them, he is at least on some level accountable for their actions (even human parents feel accountable for their children behavior). However the God knew she would eat from the tree, and did NOTHING to correct his lack of education in his creature. 3. So now we have the God who created a person, gave it unsatisfactory education, and he knew that in advance. Then, when the person executed her "free will" in the same way utilizing the knowledge the God put in her brain, you're saying the God PUNISHING her for that? And also the rest of us? And this sounds logical for you?!? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

First, humans do not really have free will. There are restrictions, both physical (could you stop sleeping? could you eat a stone?) and from the society. Second, if you accept the God being omniscient, the whole concept of "free will" is useless to God since the omniscient creature would know in any given moment how any of us was, is, or will be behaving. I do not agree. It might look valueless for you, but it doesn't mean it's valueless for God. Remember, God works in his own ways. The second thing is that for an omnipotent creature nothing could have value (just think about it). Yes, until proven otherwise. Wanna try? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Ok. So were our spirits created perfect as well? I don't know what "having a mind like Gods" is. Is it being born sinless, or living a sinless life? A "perfect behavior" is something the God wants us to do according to Christians (like do not steal, pray Jesus and so on). But the God already knows how everyone would behave, and could give an accounting of their actions right there. Moreover, if he doesn't like the actions and wants the people to act differently, he has the power to change it. Why not to use it then? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

fixed it for ya. No need to fix; from the list the egg came the first. If not from the list - the simple cell came the first. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I was asking those questions (and I believe I explicitly mentioned it) that I wanted to know that my opponent thought about the subject. Not what the Bible said about it. Trust me, if I ever need to know what the Bible says about something, I will find it myself. Thank you. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Why? It should be obvious for any high school graduate /studying this list/ that egg came the first. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

This would not make any sense. If our perfection or imperfection is external and comes from and depends on something outside, the it doesn't make any sense to not sin or to follow Jesus. Actually they weren't according to the Bible. Growing old and dying was a part of God's punishment for Adam and Eva for "apple rule violation", followed by their Edem expulsion. You didn't exactly answer the question; what is "spiritual purity"? Does it mean "inability to sin"? Or just a "clean slate", like the babies are born right now? Then it means the God created the people being able to chose the knowledge of good and evil over the Knowledge of God, and therefore the God should be fine with this. What do you think? I'm equating perfection with "doing what the God wants us to do, and not doing what the God does not want us to do". The "acceptance" is too vague word, and for this discussion like this I'd like to avoid interpretations whenever possible. That's why I'm trying to be very specific, and it would really help if you're too :) Why? You seemed to already agree that the God knows the future for any of us. What exactly you're disagreeing? But what sense it makes for everyone, who is already dead, and therefore cannot change anything? It won't have any educational effect (since it's too late); what for? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Spent about a day in SF traffic jams. We need gas to go at least twice more, so it would be possible to drive again in Bay Area * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

But you have to! You obviously agree humans were not created perfect physically - there is enough evidence. What else it could apply to, if not spiritual state? By saying "God created mankind sinless" do you mean that the God created everyone of us having presets to live sinless life? Or just the God created Adam and Eve sinless, but didn't give them any presets to keep them on sinless path? It's pretty strange definition. I could hardly see how masturbation or premarital sex - obvious sins according to most Christian religions - remove the God from the creator role. I equate "God creates us perfect" with at least "as the God wanted us to act". Which also implies sinless. You have another opinion? From God's viewpoint you have no free will. He already knows all the decisions you will make, and everything you will do in your life. It's like an FPS computer game - you think you have free will there, and free to do whatever you want, but actually your "free will" is restricted and heavily manipulated by the game creator, and in most cases he knows exactly what you gonna do next. But why the God needs to _wait_ until the Judgment day, if - as Christians say - his goal is just to separate those who follow Christ and those who do not? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

This is not the question I'm asking, and I really doubt this question (regarding why the God created Adam) could be reasonably answered. It might be interesting for scholars, but doesn't make sense in a dispute like we have. Yes, this might be the case, but then it - yet again - contradicts with Christian teachings. If the God created us imperfect, and knew this from the beginning, but then told us he expects us to be perfect or be punished otherwise, you cannot claim anymore that this God loves us and _wants_ us to be saved and live a perfect life. In fact this God would look more like an asshole, not really different from punishing the people because they cannot fly. I need to stress that from the omniscient God viewpoint there is no choice. You might believe you have choice (and therefore free will), but for God "everything is fixed and you can't change it" (C) Jesus, since the God is omniscient. So then do you believe the God really waits wondering whether we change or not? Do you now (after the omniscience thing discussion) see any sense in Judgment Day? Remember, the omniscient God who already knows what is going to happen already knows who was, is and will live and what kind of life. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *