vortexring

Here's the link: (4th paragraph) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6596653.stm I wonder how many parents are delighted their children are serving in Iraq? Proud? Of course. Delighted!!?? I can't wait for mine to be old enough to join the military and serve out there. Insane! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Well, first off we can do things like what happened in November - vote the policymakers out. Appointment to the rank of Brigadier General (O-7) requires a Presidential Nomination and Confirmation by the Senate. Such is required for promotion all the way up to O-10. This means two things: 1) Political approval of senior military leadership; and 2) that senior military leadership usually has a fair amount of political acumen. The most disturbing thing to me as an officer in the Army was the amount of pencil-whipping that went on. I never did it because, well, I had a civilian career that meant I didn't give a shit whether I progressed in rank so I said it like it was. I firmly believe that with anything, shit rolls downhill. The climate set by the senior leadership rolls down to the lower enlisted. A general who will not tolerate bullshit will have people below who will not tolerate bullshit and will not bullshit. So, what we do is bring in new people who will not tolerate bullshit from the senior leadership. This is but another reason why I believe that Congress and the Presidency should be of opposing parties - just to keep each other honest. Which is why I wish I had your life. I see some fucked up shit on a daily basis. It's all very well to bring in people who won't tolerate BS from senior leadership, except they'll last around 5 minutes into their careers - and it's questionable over whether they could ever achieve such a position being the way described. It's the senior leadership who are at fault, yet continue to remain blameless. Regarding having my life, I struggle to imagine what fucked up shit as a lawyer(?) you experience which isn't 'normal' to western society. And is actually worse than certain events brought around through our Governments lies. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

QuoteThis event, and the many similiar in the past, is a primary reason to explain why you should end legal gun ownership. It's just not worth it. Often, what may make logical sense to some, doesn't play out the way you think it will. I've not seen any hard data to make me think that taking away citizen's guns will stop violence. In fact, didn't I see something recently about gun crime rates in England continuing to rise a decade after the citizens' guns were confiscated? Yes, I'm sure you did - but we haven't had a school massacre since, or a Hungerford type disaster. Sure, there are various (and becoming numerous) isolated shootings by criminals. The ethnicity and legitimate status of the actual criminals in question certainly raises a few questions. Also, much of US popular culture rubs off onto British society such as your tooled up gangsta rapper type arsehole. Other elements of our organised criminal gun users such as the Yardies will always operate outside the law. But this is a different issue altogether. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Many of us ARE disturbed by a number of these things. What should we do in response? I'm not going to allow myself to get depressed or upset or otherwise disturb my schedule and life on the basis of being lied to by the government. Should I allow myself to say, "What a downer. The government lied. How can I go about my merry business today when there is such shame?" We've got no choice. If the most disturbing thing in your world is a government's lies, fuck, I wish I had your life. What should we do in response? That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I find it frustrating to accept we have no choice in the matter. It's frustrating to read and hear about investigations into such matters which are inevitably a white wash and everything generally carries on as before. So in a sense, whilst I may be carrying on with my business - I'm still giving the problem some thought regarding solutions. And at the moment, I can't actually think of anything more disturbing in my life than my Governments lies. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Yes, it is cultural. The American gun culture. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

True - but they lack power. I'm sure this is mainly through peoples apathy. So essentially they're achieving nothing. And history shows the next party elected into Government will be literally of the same ilk. Western Governmental power over their societies continues to gain more and more strength and control. The problem lies in their audacious capacity for deceit and greed with there being no significant control over this. What a pisser... edit: And anarchism is certainly no way forward.

You don't need to explain to me about war. What baffles me is the apathy of everyday people who seem to a point disturbed by such deceit yet remain reasonably happy to carry on with their everyday lives. I guess people in the military, for example, tend to hide behind the excuse of duty and what have you. Recently the Head of the British Armed forces, the Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Richard Dannatt, spoke out (slightly) in regards to the UK's official political stance regarding Iraq. And I'm also noticing a slight trend of retired Generals speaking out critically of Government policy. But Dannatt's comments no doubt caused quite a shock seeing as he still serves. I think we're getting to the point where serving soldiers are asking too many questions rather than dutifully serving and obeying the will of their political masters. And is there any wonder? Despite being duty bound, they themselves have a moral obligation. 'Tactically' an example could simply be a demonstration of sound moral leadership where necessary. Would a 'strategic' response be to quit the military altogether? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

I still believe the fundamental reason was a change - oil for Euro's rather than Dollar's. Economically America would be quite simply f'ed. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Hey John, I'm actually in the States at the moment - imagine my surprise whilst watching the news to hear the opinion of a 'School Shooting Expert.' A school shooting expert. I can't quite find the words to describe how I feel about this. It's pretty heart breaking to try and comprehend the murder of 32 students. And then there is a 'school shootings expert' on scene to give his opinion....... This event, and the many similiar in the past, is a primary reason to explain why you should end legal gun ownership. It's just not worth it. I firmly believe such new laws would help prevent and reduce the frequency of such incidents. And I don't need statistics - just common sense. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

If you're that concerned, and you're her friend, nag away!

You'd really have to be rather daft to believe everything our leaders and politicians tell us. We get older listening to the newer and more extravagant lies whilst doing very little about it, other than perhaps commenting over the matter, or changing our vote. Is there anything else that can be done morally and legally? Doesn't seem so - all the power is off balance. Maybe this is an issue in itself. Anyway, I came across this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6588611.stm What a complete tragedy. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Yeah, good point. Think I'll give myself a 2 month ban. C ya all in June.

You missed the point. T.E. Lawrence and Erwin Rommel are not modern day politicians, or silly sailors with about as much honour and dignity as a Whopper meal. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Do you actually understand the Queen's English? Despite your questioning, you're still agreeing with me? Despite being 'steamed.' Are you a Labour Party gibbon??? Anyway, I do see your points, I just get fucked off and gob off here. Saves getting a GBH charge in the local apparantly.

Dude, you just made a personal attack on me for what I said in This Post but you obviously agree with everything I said and are actually even more harsh. ????? I used to post drunk too. Well, glad you laugh, it's funny when you miss the entire point isn't it? And being drunk is not an excuse either. Get a grip of yourself. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

He's a complete tit - a failed lawyer, a proven liar. The most basic body language student could easily identify him as a compulsive liar, yet he is a national leader! An arse gibbon licker, to fulfil his mortgage commitments. Fucking hell! In the '50's the majority of politicians were ex-servicemen. What are they now? What positive characteristics are these chimps bringing to the people as leaders? Entirely fuck all. No fucking wonder society is rotating down the plughole. It makes me utterly sick. The world would be a more peaceful place without these fucking monkeys we are appeased to vote for. Yet still we do! Conclusion - the majority of people are fucking stupid. Or, the majority of people share similiar ideals to the political gibbons. Cunts. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Blair says selling stories "not a good idea" 11/04/2007 23:18 By Peter Graff LONDON (Reuters) - Prime Minister Tony Blair acknowledged on Wednesday it was a bad idea to let sailors held in Iran sell their stories to newspapers, but appeared unlikely to sack top officials over the affair. After days of silence, Defence Secretary Des Browne accepted responsibility for the decision to relax rules on service members profiting from interviews to allow sailors captured by Iran to sell their stories for thousands of pounds. Blair, in his first comments on an affair that has overshadowed the freeing of 15 sailors and marines after nearly two weeks in Iran, said navy chiefs were only trying to manage media hype when they agreed to let them accept payment. "The navy were trying to deal with a wholly exceptional situation in which the families were being pursued by the media to sell their stories," Blair said in televised comments. "The navy took the view that it would be better to try to manage the situation rather than let it happen. Now, with hindsight, was that a good idea? No," he said. "Do I believe it will happen again? No. But were people acting completely in good faith and honourably so far as the navy was concerned? Yes they were. Now I think we have had days of this already and it’s time to move on." Political opponents said the decision to allow the service members to profit from their time in Iran handed a propaganda coup to Britain’s enemies and embarrassed serving troops. Browne said with hindsight he would not have permitted the troops to accept payment for their stories. He reversed the decision on Monday, banning further payments, after stories from two of the captured personnel had been published. "I don’t hide behind the fact that the navy made this decision. I accept responsibility," the defence secretary said in a television interview.< What a complete cunt - ok, the useless Navy/cabbagehead surrender monkeys completely fucked up, and a couple of oxygen thieves amongst them decided to whore themselves for cash to the press. Which is initially dishonerable is it not? (Taking into account the experiences of our forefathers in WWII, the poor conscripts in Vietnam and also; the numerous innocent tortured souls in Guantanomo bay.) So what the FUCK has that useless CUNT B'Liar got to say on the matter, as he whores an entire nation to aid his after dinner lies, to fund his mortgage. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Your last sentance should really say something along the lines of; 'anyone knowing me will know I'm talking complete BS.' Have a nice day in your nice safe life yourself. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

You've had a lot to say on the matter - any professional tips? Any experience on such incidents to divulge? C'mon - you must have! You bring into context valour and honour. Charecteristics you obviously don't have. You craphat. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Missed the rapid movers. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Is your neck sunburnt? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

What a complete and entire load of bollox - your either American, Swiss or ..... I know, it's not quite worth saying what you are is it? All this SERE knowledge amongst posters - it has no relevance, other than to demostrate how nice it would be to have our craphat units such as the Navy and SurrenderCabbage heads SERE trained. Obviously not fucking worth it is it? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

If I was the ronery North Korean President I believe priority A would be an arsenal of significant nukes - like, yeah!

I think you've pretty much answered your own questions. An old workmate had this shocked comment to make over a week ago regarding the matter; "Fucking hell, if it'd been us the headlines would be saying Iranians Massacred." 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Yeah, of course they're not heroes. Dickheads perhaps. I'm sure the two who've sold their stories may well think it wasn't such a good idea later on but who knows? Anyway, regarding your official secrets acts, didn't you ever hear of Andy McGrab & Chris Liar Ryan? Anyway who's the 'we' who allowed their capture? The Government? The Navy? The Commander on the boarding crafts? Each individual involved? Was it lack of intelligence? Lack of firepower? Lack of a 'fuck-getting-captured-by-the-Iranians' mentality?Strategic fuck up or tactical fuck up? Or both!? Or even, an unavoidable fuck up? No. Other than the fact British Forces...in fact, I'll change that. Other than the fact the British NAVY and the entire incident is all a bit embarrassing, I couldn't really care for the individuals involved. That's not what's really important. What is should currently be being suitably addressed. It's all very well to comment on SERE training and Resistance to Interogation techniques but how much training would the captured sailors have had? Then again, I wonder how much training they done to repel 'Iranian gunboats appearing from no-where and coming towards us very fast.' Probably fuck all. Somebody probably commented on the fact there's a couple of boats coming towards them; whilst the remainder stared at their approach in a trance, until, fuck me, I'm staring down the wrong end of a .50 cal! Surrender!! edit: In the old day's if captured you'd keep to the big 4, which eventually became the big 6. The only other thing you were allowed to say was 'Sorry sir, I cannot answer that question.' Even if you were asked if you'd like a coffee you couldn't even raise your hand as a response. A bit of editing and hey presto, "Who just called the President a wanker?" or "Who dropped the bomb on Abdullahs melon?" Me! Still, quite a good system to antagonize your captors eh? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'