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Maybe, its in a bit of a short hand so I'd have to add explainations to a lot of the points on the list. This will have to wait for my next day off. well, put in that day off request and get to it copper!!! seriously though, your previous post was most informative... it had more substance than most other posts combined... this document you're working on has piqued my curiosity. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

just doin my part to help, babe. you don't think I'm ghey, do ya? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

I will tell you this Liz. Counting the EXACT time since you quit never helps. It just reminds you that you are not smoking. YOU CAN DO IT!! Hey rob, are you nekkid in your avatar pic? mmmm, 'cos that would give liz som-som to think a bout besides smokin... except your smokin ass! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Pinecone pic caption: "Take it all baby, Take it ALL!!!! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

you still have 10 toe nails!

!!!!!!!!! STOP !!!!!!!! no pink... NO fawking PINK !!! We are skydivers here... we play in the BLUE skies!!! Blue is the color!!! BLUE !!! but what color is the sky on a sunset load? pink! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

One thing they did say on their web site that you either didn't see or chose to ignore was that with an exit weight of 240-250 pounds you should be an expert canopy pilot. With 68 jumps their recommended MOW is 179 pounds. Why worry about anything else they might have to say about the canopy, generally speaking. I'm not at all surprised that such a comment has finally been made. In spite of a tone that could infer other motives, I'll assume that you have only the best of intentions by making your post. Given the history of far too many inexperienced canopy pilots making hamburger of themselves under little beach-towel sized canopies, I can understand the shift by some here to be critical of anyone who could, at first blush, appear to be making downsizing decisions that are imprudent. Last night I weighed myself and my gear and I came in at 245. That puts me at a wing loading of 1.166. I'd hardly say that's on the radical side, but still, considering my jump numbers, I can understand why someone such as yourself would have some concern. However, knowing what you do about canopy piloting, being as experienced as you are, surely you admit that there are more factors to consider regarding who is flying under what canopy. You simply can not go just on jump numbers alone to determine who will live and who will die under any particular parachute. True, were someone like me to get under a Stiletto that is 1/2 or 2/3 or even 3/4 the size of my Fusion, surely I'd be in for a world of trouble. But I am not doing that, am I. I am flying an "entry level" (Precision's words, not mine) canopy that is only 5 sq ft smaller than my previous canopy. Do you know what my canopy progression has been? Do you know what kind of canopy training I have had and from whom? Do you know that I have a coach, a dz staff member, watch and critique just about every flight under canopy and every landing I make under this 210? Do you also know that I have made checklists for myself, based on Bill Von's and Brian Germain's list of canopy skills and I regularly practice the skill sets from these checklists under canopy? As I said earlier, I spend almost as many jumps pulling above 10k on this canopy as I do making regular skydives, just to perfect my flying under this wing. The point I'm trying to make is that we can all make over-arching generalizations and assumptions about individuals based on incomplete data, as you did in this case. The dz I jump at is extremely safety conscious, sometimes obnoxiously so. There has never been a fatality or even a serious injury there in 40 years of operation. The most they have had are things like broken ankles. They have seen me fly, they know my history, they are intimately involved in my training and they do not share your view. As for your statement, >Why worry about anything else they might have to say about the canopy, generally speaking It's still a valid question, especially for someone like me who takes their training and advancement in this sport as seriously as I do. But thanks for trying to invalidate that... Edited to add a snippet from icarus' website re: wingloading... it sums up the category I fall into in jumping this size Fusion... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Liz, this is the post to read and re-read and re-re-re-read... your father is proud of you. Makes me cry. You can do it! It's SO worth it!!! Every time I look at my kids and my wife says she's proud I quit, I'm reminded how much it was worth it!!!! YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!! Don't give up! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

I tried to get a "Fat Fawk 4-way" going at The Farm... We have myself, Hans, skinnyshrek, and a few others that are slightly larger than most... unfortunately they are normally busy working instead of playing... which isn't a bad thing... I have hit over 180 on my fat belly. just glad i have a nitro to slow my openings except when that crazy women from russia packs my shit you let tatyana (sp?) pack your rig? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

holy shit, can anyone see Lee as a dad? Oh man... someone snip that man's vas defens NOW!!!! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

j, when you gettin your rig outlined on your back? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Well, since you asked, yes. Mark Can you elaborate? Is it that my understanding of owners manuals is faulty? Am I asking that their purpose and scope be more than what they have historically been? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

can we share your bunk at The Farm? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Wanted to add something here... I don't want to give the impression that I have this "external locus of control" here and am relying on PA or anyone else for my canopy training. I'm not trying to pass any blame onto any person or company. On this particular canopy, my first ZP canopy and the smallest I've jumped, (not small, I know, but small for ME!) I've made quite a few hop and pops from anywhere from 10-14k and I'll continue to do so. I have been consulting coaches and have been doing canopy drills continuously to ensure that I know how this thing flies inside out. Maybe that's why I'm sort of crazy about this manual issue. I take this whole "safety and training" thing to heart and think that an encyclopedic manual is an important component. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Amen brotha! Minimum doesn't mean you *shouldn't* pull higher. It's nice to see folks where I now jump regularly breaking off at 5k and pulling at 4 and 3.5. Of course, this is a dz w/o a fatality in it's 40 year existance. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

As far as I know there is not an updated manual with the new Raven-Max reserve. Now for a rigger to legally pack it they need to at least have the manual availble to them. PD has been talking about a new reserve manual for at least 2 years. I can understand, its not a high priority and if they put it in writing then its the standerd to be held to for legal reasons. If nothing is broke in the current version, don't try to improve it. are you serious? ok y'all, am I just making something out of nothing here? this all just seems irresponsible. granted, we're supposed to be trained, responsible people who know/understand/assume the risks inherent in this sport, but really... to put out a product w/ no operators manual or a sorerly out of date one? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

where do you jump? we need to get all of us big guys together and form the fat-man free-fallers club (even if we're not *cough* fat *cough*) I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

thanks for chiming in dave. if that's what's in PD's manual, that's almost as disappointing as not having a manual at all! c'mon folks, i know some things aren't going to change much, but really... i buy a specific product for a specific reason and i want the manual to clearly and precisely elucidate how that product is going to function, generally speaking. I know it can't tell me everything, and I don't expect it to. I have to go jump it and train w/ it. But esp. w/ todays canopies, dontcha think that manufacturers would want to produce the most up-to-date, descriptive product manuals available to their customers? I know I would if I were a manufacturer. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

omg, you have me heaving in laughter! i so needed that on this monday!!! many thanks!!! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

this weekend, not trying to fall fast... three jumps, actually trying to fall slow... 132, 133, 134 respectively. I seriously need to work on de-arching and learning to fly slower. Ugh. Sometimes I hate being a big guy. I wonder what I could do in a really hard arch, no suit, all tucked in, still on my belly? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Ya know, those are good points you make, but at the dz I now call "home," the owner's manuals I've seen lying around there aren't just brochures w/ the material that can be found a website such as what you note is on PA's website. I haven't sat down and read any of these manuals, but here's just some comparison from what I've seen... Performance Designs website has a 4 page PDF document on the flying characteristics of the Sabre2. I don't know what their actual manual is like, but I imagine it contains that info as well as packing info, care of the canopy, etc. Icarus posts their canopy manuals (all in one) on their website, a 31 page document. Maybe you're right in that any ram-air parachute manual will have a certain amount of generic information in it that is applicable to all ram-air canopies. However, I would hope that a reputable, responsible manufacturer (and I am NOT accusing PA of being irreputable or irresponsible), would also disclose in a manual that information that is specifically germain to that specific product. I would hope to see information about how MY specific canopy flies, what it's general characteristics are in varying conditions. I don't just want sales hype from a website, I want actual true-life data that the manufacturer has gathered. I would also like info on the lines (my canopy came w/ HMA lines and I knew nothing about this type of line material), service information, etc. Sorry this is getting long winded, but I guess what I'm saying is, even though to some extent a parachute is a parachute is a parachute, each model of canopy, especially in today's marketplace, is different and it behooves the manufacturer to produce and distribute an operators manual in a timely manner. I just don't see that happening w/ PA. Of course, there may be more to this that I don't know about, and if so, I'd love to hear it... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

drats! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

I was wondering when Fletch would show up! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

Oh good on ya! You're right if I got me a wife AND a husband, that'll do well! Damned mormons, always did give me the willies! Their beer is like 3% ETOH! WTF??? (no offense meant to any LDS' out there...) I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...

lurch, your story gave me chills. don't ever forget how lucky you are to have a dad like that. fucking incredible!!! I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And...