NCclimber

In Kerry's case it's the "I actually served in combat in Vietnam" truth. And put in a request for a purple heart because I got a metal splinter.... or was the rice that got under my skin.

I went to that link, but could find where they mentioned either of those studies. They do a good job of ignoring the elephant in the room. I'm still waiting the hear about a single death, where the official cause of death was "secondhand smoke". With the 10s of thousands of Americans who supposed die from this every year, I'm still waiting to read about a single death where this was the cause. Just one person.

I can't speak for the "Busholytes" here, but as I see it, Bush and the Republicans in Congress have a lot to answer for. Going to Iraq was a seriously flawed decision. More than that, they had the opportunity to enact legislation favorable to mainstream conservatives. They pissed that one away. The assertion that the Democrats are somehow exempt from any blame regarding our governments problems is complete BULLSHIT. Own it. And the GOP has controlled Congrees for less than four years, NOT THE LAST SIX!

Nice spin.

Fuckin' A, bubba!!! That's a topic for another thread.

He failed to obtain additional deferments... not from lack of trying. Yes, he should have got more education. I heard he got in to quite a snit when Uncle Sam turned down his request to go play in Europe for a year.

It would be more in the national interest than going into Iraq Saying that it's better than something, which you feel was a bad idea, makes it a good idea?

- John Kerry (speech on behalf of Phil Angelides) Is Kerry the one who went to Vietnam, or is he the one that stayed home? He failed to obtain additional deferments... not from lack of trying.

Neo Cons and those same patrician class like the Bushes who expect to get rich without doing the work of building a country for all the american people. Sending off american jobs so they can reap huge rewards in salaries in bonuses.. that has taken the american dream away from a large number of americans.... It stems from the self serving.. rather than serving America. Let's see... the Dems raise taxes on businesses... businessess, being driven by the bottom line, outsource jobs overseas... and this is somehow Bush's fault?. So why is outsourcing going on 6 years into a GOPfest? Try being logical. I suppose the 43% increase in the number of mortgage foreclosures last quarter is also Clinton's fault. Maybe I should start a thread on what people consider traditional American values... to me they are things like hard work, self-sufficiency, patriotism, property rights, respect for the laws and the process, live and let live. Most of these concepts have been eroding for 40 or 50 years. What has happened in the last six years is really no different than any previous decade. IMO it's the growth of the "it's not my fault, the government owns me, I'm entitled to healthcare & housing, it's my right, and any aspect where I may be lacking is the fault of society and the government" mindset. But, hey, lets get bent about Bush wanting to mistreat terrorists. They have rights, too. And third quarter foreclosures were lower than first quarter foreclosures. Hmmm

No, they are unbiased if not in the pay of the big energy industries. Maybe you recall that scientists in the pay of big tobacco companies produced study after study showing no ill effects of smoking. In 1993 Philip Morris set up a “grass roots coalition” to “cast doubt on studies showing that second-hand tobacco smoke is dangerous for health.” In order not to raise suspicion that the company was involved, Philip Morris decided to “‘link the tobacco issue with other more politically correct products’ and campaign on issues like global warming.” (source - internal company memo). The result was the Advancement of Sound Science (sic) Coalition , which was “one of the first organizations to throw a smokescreen over global warming.” Meanwhile, the two largest, long term studies on secondhand smoke have shown the negative effects of SHS to be statistically insignificant. It was interesting to watch the anti-smoking partisans attack those two studies.

They have over 500 million barrels in proven reserves. For the most part, exploration has been curtailed for the last 15 years. There's been a civil war. Lou Dobbs showed his stripes (to me) when he railed against the Dubai ports deal.

Which group (I'm asking for generalizations) has done more to erode those traditional American values?

As far as the chichenhawk label goes, are we going to give future presidents blessings for deploying troops only if they have actual combat experience? Here's a short list of presidents who never saw combat - Lincoln FDR LBJ - he (allegedly) went on a single flight Nixon Clinton Bush Anyone care to compare combat deaths during each presidency?

Lets continue on.. JFK and his brothers..including Joe the dead one.. and even poor ole Teddy....LBJ..Truman....McCain...Eisenhower..Nixon.. Carter.... Here is a GREAT site.. I will link this president and his cabinet. http://www.whoserved.com/executiveprofiles.asp These are the people who find it so easy to send people off to war.. since they have no fucking clue what its like. It seems people are confusing the popular "chickenhawk" label (that FDR and Clinton never had to contend with) for the charge popularized by Michael Moore that politicians willing to send troops to do their "dirty work" should be willing to send their own children. The later was what I was addressing in response to

Lets ask Lawrence Summers.

What so many people fail to recognize is this dynamic has been the norm throughout this country's history. Looking back over the last 200 years, which administrations put themselves and their families in harms way? ] Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Grant, Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt woops, he said 200 years. some of those were more. The key word is administration. None did so while in office.

What so many people fail to recognize is this dynamic has been the norm throughout this country's history. Looking back over the last 200 years, which administrations put themselves and their families in harms way? Bill, My point about income taxes is that they should top the list of things we should protest. I think you inferred something quite different. Good point about it starting small. I blame FDR.

For the last few years I've heard constant claims of "our civil rights are being taken away". It's accompanied with much wailing and moaning. Comparisons to 1930s Germany get tossed about, too. What seems lacking from this drama is anything more than a handful of US citizens being adversely impacted by all our civil rights being taken. The protests vs. the actual impact seem to be a fine example of a mountain being made from a molehill. Meanwhile, 18 per cent of our GDP is being collected by the Federal Government every year.

No, but I do think it is extremely overused/misused when applied to presentday life in America.

Here's a little food for thought. http://www.futureofthebook.com/stories/storyReader$605

Where did he write that?

This is completely off topic. Does anyone else think the highlighted sentence is funny?

Wow. Using this kind of non-specific thinking one could say Bush invaded Iraq because the thought it best.

How could anybody provide specifics as to what Bill Clinton thought? I don't know, but it would be interesting to hear an explanation from someone involved, why a President of the United States of America would agree to such an unfavorable deal... not just a hypothetical "In my line of work, we sometimes blah, blah, blah" that has nothing to do with the actual situation.

My claim (and the claim of others) is that the U.S. government befriended, used and then abandon their allies in Afghanistan. There is a substantial amount of information that points in that direction (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/ do some research). U.S. support for the Mujahadeen began before the Afghan-Russain war. This was admitted by Carter's National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski in a January 1998 interview. One of the few policies of the Carter administration to be carried on in the Reagan admin. was the support of the Mujahadeen. Reagan viewed the Islamic warlords as "heroes" and hailed them to be "freedom fighters". Reagan then went on to say, who were "an example to all the world of the invincibility of the ideals we in this country hold most dear, the ideals of freedom and independence.". Even the Dems were onboard this so called freedom train as Senator Bill Bradley said that the warlords were "the sole legitimate representatives of the Afghan people" who were "developing a modern concept of an independent, neutral Islamic state." With the support of the Pakistans Inter - Service Intelligence Agency the U.S. channeled several billions of dollars worth of weapons into Afghanistan to arm the Mujahadeen. While funding and weapons poured in, the CIA operated a pipeline of fighters from countries throughout the M.E. such as Saudi Arabia from where Osama Bin Laden came from. After the 1988 accord between the U.S and Russia the Mujahadeen were on their own for upto another year before Russia completely withdrew in Febuary of 89. The true reason the U.S. gave such overwhelming support to the Mujahadeen had nothing to do with their freedom but, everything to do with pulling Russia, the U.S.'s rival in world domination, into a war that it could not win and this was admitted by Brzezinski. The true purpose of orchastrating a war between the Afghani's and Russia was solely to undermine the Russians. The U.S. cared little about the aftermath as it was well known what sort of state that Afghanistan would fall to after the U.S. pulled its support. As Brzezinski said, "What was more important in the world? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?". If anyone is to blame for the ill feelings the "terrorist" have towards the U.S. government it is the U.S. government itself as they are solely responsible for bringing the Taliban to power. Some would have you to believe that these people just woke up one day and decided that they hate the U.S. because we are not of their religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. They dispise our government for what was done to them after the truth was revealed of why the U.S. pulled them into a war with Russia. You want to know the truth, do the research and do not depend on political ads for your information. Use the link that I supplied to the National Archives. I rest my case. I agree with practically all of what you claim in the above post. However it does nothing to support the points I questioned on page two.