jdhill

We havn't yet... but when the guy that on no less than three occations either threatend or invaded his neighbors, mined shipping lanes, sought weapons that could reach beyond his neigbors, and actively encouraged the use of terrorism is replaced with a stable government who is not a threat to the other countries in the region, I'd say that is a step toward stability. Another step will be a settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict... It is in our interest, yes... but it is also in the interest of European countries, and Asian countries... therefor not selfish. Do our actions have an impact? Some, sure, but with the slanted news sources at best, and demagouges at worst we could bomb Israel and it come back as we hit Israel by mistake, we were really aiming at the refugee camp... How much did AJ report on the US helping Muslims in the Balkins? Not much... Those that are suseptable to reruitment by extremists don't vet their news sources, and don't get the news for several sources... they get it from the Mullah down the street... J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

What was the perception of the population in the 80s? It was we must do something to stop the USSR, but we are not willing to go to war over it, so arming this band in the mountains who will fight them sounds like a pretty good idea. What "oppressive regime" are we arming? Is it the Isaelis? They make most of their own weapons. Is it the Saudis? They would just BUY them somewhere else. Exactly which "selfish interest" are we serving? Is it protecting our oil supply? No, we buy most of our oil from South America... Is it stabilizing a region that has a tremendous effect on the developed world's economies? More likely, but that is not "our own selfish interests". Its not fear or mistrust bred by our actions, it is hatred and fear propagated by religious extremists. We could stop supporting Israel tomorrow and it would probably be reported on al Jezzera that we have turned the Israelis loose to kill Palestinians J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Civilians may have that view... The military on the DMZ knows quite well that it is only a ceasefire, not peace. The military knew we would eventually invade Iraq... as fun as it would have been to wargame an OPLAN for the invasion of France, the one that is fought most often since 1991 was Iraq, followed by Korea. You mean the one's that fought the Russian Army, right? Did some of those guys go off and do bad things? yes... was our INTENT to support terrorist operations? no... The money and equipment was to fight the Russian MILITARY, not systematically attack civilian populations. There is a difference, Bill. We have supported insurgencies, but have tried to keep that support to groups that fight their government, not their people. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Well, I'm right eye dominant, and I prefer left hand turns... I think it comes from having left hand paterns driven into my head at my first DZ... J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Well your example doesn't fit at all... Iraq fired on US aircraft enforcing a no-fly zone imposed by the UN... Which was after he invaded his neighbor, and occupied the US embassy, which everyone knows is esentially US soil, and taking the staff hostage, ... "Gulf War II", is really just a continuation of "Gulf War I" since Iraq was in violation of the cease fire agreement from nearly the day it was signed... Even Clinton acted, but only in a limited manner. Iraq was a prolific supporter of international terrorism... Harboring Abbu Abbass, Abu Musab Zarqawi... paying the families of Palestinians who undertook homicide bombings against Israel... Oh yeah, and Iraq did shoot the USS Stark back in the 80s All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

It will be much easier for us to get to a point where we are not killing Arabs (Muslims would be a better group since it is not just an Arab issue that we are facing) if they would stop shooting at us... The US did not just dicide to pick a fight with the Muslim or Arab world... our military actions in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s have all been in response to aggression by the other side, and that IMO includes Iraq. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I agree, it goes both ways... but who started the killing? I recall a famous Japanneese Admiral commenting shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor... he said something to the effect "I fear we have awakend a sleeping tiger" The US did not create Israel, and didn't support it when it was attacked by the Arab world the day after it was created by the UN. The US has never bombed Suadi Arabia, Jordan or Egypt... We bombed Lebenon after our troops were attacked, troops that were there under the UN flag. We've bombed Iran after US flaged ships were fired upon... and we didn't start shooting at Iraq until they invaded on of its neighbors, then continually breeched the ceasefire agreement... So who needs to put down the guns first? J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Maybe its because CBS just announced it officially? J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Well they could stop the homicide bombings, stop using terrorism, and start showing the world that they have the capacity to govern themselvse... that would be a start. I don't hate Arabs, Palestinians, or Persians... I do hate terrorists, no mater what their background. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

So how does the US fix the perception that some people in the middle east have? Especially when the Irsraeli-Palestinian conflict has little effect on them directly... Or is it just an excuse... Arabs don't really like the Palestininians, they just like the Israelis less. It comes down to effecting the religious extremist who think its OK to use violence to spread their religion... the hate needs to be taken out of their education system... either through reform, or by eliminating those who profess hate in the name of religion (and that would go for any religion, not just Islam)... some of the governments in the region are trying to change the education practices, others purposefully use these systems to solidify their own power... Hearts and Minds along with a sharp knife, or a big bomb... it will go one of those two ways, because it won't take care of itself. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Do we support Israel? Yes... should we is another question... Do we exercise infulence over, or interfere with their electoral process? Do we keep one party in power over another? Do we keep one person in power over another? No. If we did, then I would agree that we were proping them up, but we don't... if we withdrew our financial support to Israel, the government would not crumble, nor would their military... Again, we are giving them aid, but we are not proping them up. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I listen to those shows on the way to and from work, and I haven't heard Kerry's name in the last two weeks... can't speak for the mid-day stuff, but the morning and evening shows seem to be leaving him alone. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

So, professor, what makes the South side of Chicago any more or less real than College Station, or any other place? While aggies might seem like they are from some sort of Bizzaro world ( for all the aggies), College Station is quite real. If you have places that the police won't go, and EMS won't go, than you have big problems, and new gun laws won't fix them. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I've got about 1000 jumps on velocities at anywhere from 2.0 to 2.5... I've had line twists 3 times... Chopped 1 (probably could have kicked out of it), kicked out of 1, and 1 flew itself out... 1700 feet, at night, with a high WL suonds like a bad place to finding out you have line twists... J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I was refering to the "wipe them out" part as not being the military's goals... The military does not want to be nation builders, but know it is part and parcel of many of their missions... There is an entire branch of the Army who's mission is reconstruction / civic action type activities, Civil Affairs. Army Engineers have units trained in infastructure rebuilding... One of the core missions of the Special Forces is esentially nation building, just on a small scale. The Army even has a name for it... Stability and Support Operations, SASO... which used to be Operations Other Than War, OOTWA, , which used to be Low intesity Conflict, LIC, which used to be Counter-insurgency Operations, COIN... they Army has always resisted doing it, but have always known they would have to do it, and have trained for it. As for selling weapons to the Saudi's... when was the last time they used an M1, or an F15 on their own population? I've seen them use small arms against extremists, but those were German made, so where is the outrage against Europe?... Iraq had weapons from Russia and France... again where was the outrage against Europe? Syria, Iran, yada, yada, yada... J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

That's not what the military wanted to do in Vietnam, and not what they want to do in Iraq... In Vietnam, the military wanted to go after the supply routes and sanctuaries, but were not allowed to... Other segments wanted to organize locals to resist the insurgency... this turned into the Hamlet Program, which was forced relocation and a general failure. We have friendly relations with many governments in the Mid East, but I don't think I can point to one that we prop up... I could see where some might argue we prop up the Israeli government, but I think that is a stretch if you look at it objectively. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

It sems he missed much more substantial issues... mostly political... The US did not loose the war because of US military shortcomings or defeat... The bigger issues: -We supported a corrupt government that was opposed by most of the people, communist or not. -The military was not allowed to fight the war, restictions on bombing, entering Cambodia and Laos, etc. -Not following through on counterinsurgency strategies implemented early in the conflict, but instead approaching the conflict as a conventional one. -Individual troop rotation vs. Unit rotations I think that assumption is premature. There may be areas where the election has problems, sure, and some car bombings too... but I think the elections will be held and will have a high level of participation. Hearts and Minds...The insurgents and or terrorists can only blend it the population lets them. And it that doesn't work... door to door, house to house. Even with successful elections, it will take some of both. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I'm well aware of the joke, the old, tired, and rather uneducated joke ... it's also pretty well known that its taken as a joke coming from someone on the inside, but as a slight from those on the outside... kinda like the "n" word... Our Military Intellignece organizations, while by no means perfect, are some of the best in the world... Our professional military leadership are some of the most effective "critical thinkers" in our government, While those skills may not extend to the civilian leadership, to slight those who have dedicated a lifetime to the protection of our way of life is narrow minded. It seems to be a sport for some around here. J J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

For someone so educated, that is a very narrow minded statement

If you are a contractor, the only rules that apply are what your contact says... If you don't want to accept those terms, don't sign the contract... it is supply and demand though... if there is someone out there that is willing to do the same work for those terms, than that becomes the market rate. The companies are going to try to pay as little as the can for their contractors... A professional contractor should cost a firm the same or more than an employee on an hourly basis, especially if they are using a recruiting firm or temp agency to get the contractors... They may not have to pay benifits, but the contractor's rate should be marked up to provide that for themselves. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I have a fairly larg setup... 2 stills and video, about 10lbs.... I used to watch my openings until I had one get a little funky on me and wiped my head around... I had to take a break for a few weeks... Now I keep my head centered looking forward, and just ride out the openings. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

I know that ditch pretty well, and that look pretty close to a helicopter ride... J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

You make the assumption that what he did was incorrect... the facts of the case are not yet fully known, and the video is inconclusive. The insurgent was NOT in custody, and did not appear to be surrendering... you cannot tell if there were any weapons within reach... the individual may have been playing opossum to evade capture or put the Marines in a vunerable position, which has been reported to be an tactic the insurgents are using... that would make his actions in fact hostile and thereby a clean shoot... or maybe not... since the Marines were not moving through the room in a tactical manner, and the Marine in question seems to just stroll up and pop the guy from close range, there may have been other motives... We just don't know yet, and to lable him a murderer, as some in this thread have, is premature. J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Interesting... so where do you see your community on the scales? J All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke