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I think the problem might be trying to quantify 'God'. Isn't that kinda like an ant trying to understand a human? If God were simply an energy (rather than a person or being) that we are not even capable of truly understanding yet, then that might explain why it would prayer seems to depend on faith. If your personal energy doesn't embrace it (faith it will work), then it can't work. If we support activities that require negative energies, then this would naturally cause us to polarize away from positive energy. (negative energy being defined as anything that would go against the 10 commandments, positive being anything supporting them) The experiments in Washington DC (that I mentioned earlier), were group meditations (not prayer gatherings) involving 4000 participants from around the world that converged on DC, to reduce crime in the city. As I understand it, the participants were all very spiritual individuals that meditated frequently. At the end of the experiment a 25% reduction in crime occured. I still cannot find links to the study itself, only discussions about it.

There's a headline you don't see much anymore... If she was in the US they could have put all the protestors into their 'special areas' so as to not distrub her... You know like they do for Bush so he doesn't get sidetracked.

Well I was trying to relate how I heard of the prayer gatherings, and it was through this movie about Quantum Physics, called "What the bleep do we know?" http://www.whatthebleep.com/ The prayer gatherings discussed, had the predicted reduction in crime in Washington, DC. I will try to find links to the studies I am talking about... Sorry for being confusing-

Has anyone heard of quantum physics? I watched a movie a while back called "What the bleep do we know" and it was an intro to it. It disscussed some studies about prayer gatherings that have taken place in various places over the years, but focused on one in Washington, DC recently (past few years?) where they predicted a percentage drop in crime after the prayer gathering. It was a huge gathering of folks from all over the world, and afterwards the drop occured. Anyone know about this study? or seen or heard of the movie? (and so you know, it doesn't mention 9-11, the government, or anything else like that )

Good call, thanks I'm done.

UNCLE! UNCLE!!

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. It is nice to have folks that will talk to me about it regarding the steel building collapsing due to fire. Except you left out the other part about crazed arabs, enabling unending war. Nuclear physics brought the towers down? Is that how the molten steel got there 4 weeks later? Oversimplification often clouds issues such as this. Our Founding Fathers fought against the very type of government we have today. An empire. Throughout history various governments have lied to their population to lead their sheeple in the proper direction and avoid insurrection. Now unless you believe that our Govt doesn't fall into that catagory, or you don't think that we have an Empire, or at least working towards it (with Britian and Isreal's help), I would imagine that we would CONSTANTLY question motives of politicians, thier lobbies and anyone else who is profiting from the taxpayer's hard work. And encourage it from each other... Please Billvon (or anyone else) tell me how the official story explains the following: 1. the molten steel found in wreckage weeks after the collape 2. how can massive wings dicentigrate (pentagon) yet they can positively ID the bodies of almost all 65 passengers? 3. does it seem odd that a unscathed passport would survive and be found on top of the rubble, but how if the whole plane went into the building and exploded? 4. why won't they release the pictures from the highway dept or the hotel? 5. the 'security upgrades' that took place 2 weeks before the attacks, in which the buildings were evacuated and powered down. then the removal of bomb sniffing dogs and other security 6. Bush's brother being in charge of the security company in charge of the towers 7. Neo-conservitives calling for a 21st Century Pearl Habor? 8. Bush's brother being in charge of Florida. (sorry disregard the last one...heh) Thanks-

Here is a number of letters and articles written by two pioneering Doctors (Dr. Martini and Dr. Blaylock) who have been trying to get the FDA to recall Aspartame for sometime. http://www.wnho.net/aspartamenews.htm And yes, it sure does seem that there were political favors involved, do you disagree???

I am not attacking Bush, and I CERTAINLY don't think he orchastrated the attacks of 9-11 (nor the Iraq invasion, etc). W is simply a figurehead. There are many who pull his strings, and I do believe it is quite possible he had fore-knowledge. The level of corruption throughout our govt is unbelievable, and wherever corruption exists, there exists many people trying to cover it up. 9-11 served as a springboard to suspend the Bill of Rights, and usher in the new era of governing through fear. This level of corruption is what I am attacking. Not a political party, as they are BOTH at fault, and just as crooked, and traitors to you and I if they vote for personal profit and power over the welfare of those who put them there. They are not protecting our freedoms, our jobs, or much of anything unless it is related to re-election or campaign donations... ***GOD BLESS the HONORABLE DR. RON PAUL of Tx - He is a TRUE Patriot and my hero***

Whoa, I didn't know that. Must be why I eat sea salt!

Just to note, you didn't have an opinion either. You simply posted the snopes.com (or wherever that came from) reply to the email that was circulated a few years back. Are we to assume that is your opinion?

FYI- Splenda is the resultant chemical reaction made from mixing chlorine and sugar. I guess there is not enough profit in natural products... or not enough sick people...

Okay, you guys have seemed to argue that the collapes were totally logical and probable, nothing at all out of the ordinary other than small handful of terror crazed arabs attacking us, which then completely and totally justifies unending war. Nothing at all causes questions in your minds? The molten steel weeks later? The pristine Passport found conviently on top of the rubble when the whole plane went into the building and exploded?? The oddness that ALL of the security of the most powerful nation in the world all stood down at the same time? The odd calmness of our President while reading about goats? The odd behavior of our Admin to not initiate an investigation for a whole year? Suspention of civil rights to protect us (isn't this why the bill of rights were written by the forefathers? to prevent this EXACT situation?) Oddness that a majority of individuals (per CNN web poll who agree with Charlie Sheen) are wanting a more complete investigation, but it is getting very little media. You all skip some points I have asked about. Come on, there are some incredibly intelligent people on this board that I know participate in critical free thinking much more than this. We need to bond together and demand answers from the administration, not bicker among ourselves about anything other than regaining control of our Govt from the corporations.

I post this with the hopes that folks will investigate this for themselves, and get involved if they feel the need. Aspartame/Nutrasweet is currently in 5000 foods and medications. There are many issues regarding its widespread use and some studies suggest its use may be related to some cancers, brain lesions and tumors, migranes, obesity, among others. Reading the Wikipedia definition of Aspartame in the 'Health Risks Controversy' section, it states If we examine the history of it and the company that discovered it (GD Searle & Co), there would seem to be some very odd coincidences.. 1. Aspartame was discovered in 1965, but the FDA would not approve it initially, because of questions surrounding cancers in the animals. 2. Donald Rumsfield served as CEO of GD Searle & Co from 1977-1981. (Rumsfield was well connected in Washington long before 1977) 3. On January 25, 1981, (the day president Reagan took office), the previous FDA commissioner's authority was suspended, and the next month, the commissioner's job went to Dr. Arthur Hull Hayes, a medical doctor and pharmacist. 4. In July 1981, Hayes, defying FDA advisors, approved aspartame for dry foods 5. In 1983 Hayes, under fire for accepting corporate gifts, left the agency and went to work for Searle's public-relations firm as a senior medical advisor. 6. In 1983 FDA further approved aspartame for use in carbonated beverages 7. Scientists agree that approximately 10% of aspartame (by mass) is broken down into methanol in the small intestine, which is then quickly converted into formaldehyde. 8. Recent results of a large seven year study in Italy found evidence that Aspartame causes leukeima and lymphoma in rats. 9. The top EU manufacturer of asparatame is quitting. 10. in 1991 they banned the 100% natural sweetner Stevia. FDA said it was an unsafe food additive... (they have since reversed this stance, but still wont allow it to be added to foods) Now I don't know about you folks, but this looks terribly suspicious to me. Looks like a classic good old boy system if you ask me... comments???

I have been struggling to find time to properly respond to your statements, but I finally found the time... Your arguements regarding the fires heating up the steel to a 'failure' temp is inaccurate. Here is another docuemnt from a company that has shown that a steel building will not collapse in a fire. http://www.corusconstruction.com/file_source/StaticFiles/Construction/Library/Fire%20resistance%20of%20steel%20framed%20buildings.pdf Check out section 15 and 16 regarding the fire tests this construction company performed, and the results. No Bill, this is where you made the error. The force would increase every 12 feet if it were unemcumbered 12 feet- nothing stopping it. BUT, they have all sorts of stuff between each floor, not to mention the 3' of steel reinforced concrete and support beams. This slows the process down, signifigantly. Unless of course, there are thermite cutting charges placed on each of the support beams to allow for each floor to fall to the next at near freefall speed. That would do it for sure. *I would still like to debate you guys about the aspartame and flouride stuff, but will start a new thread*

If that were COMPLETELY true, then why not publicly identify and educate the public on cancer causing items currently being added to our food and water supplies. If true, then wouldn't Doctors be advocating removal of Sodium Nitrite from almost every packaged meat? Since it is known to cause cancer? If true, wouldn't Doctors demand removal of aspartame from the 5000 foods it is currently in? If true, wouldn't they advocate removal of the poision Mercury from the many different childhood vaccines it is currently included in? (there are direct relationships between autism and mecury in vaccines) If true, would they prefer to drug the hyperactive child rather than encourage the parents to change their diet, among other things? Wait! some Doctors are! look here! http://www.wnho.org/ or here! http://www.dorway.com/indexnew.htm Strange that these doctors are ignored... isn't it to you? or are they just reverse conspiricy nuts... Why is it that we are the most sick, diseased and over medicated nation in the world? Why won't our leaders allow us to import less expensive drugs from Canada? Because we live in this great country where you are innocent of swindling someone unless they can prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) you did it. And while I certainly am not mocking the rights of the innocent, I do believe that the guilty will use this to their advantage, any chance they can, and is then able to hide behind their lies to cover their butts.

Well, that would depend on where the load occured versus the beam's support, and where that is located. Every horizontal beam had numerous supports from the vertical beams. If fires were to have caused the structural damage as they would have us believe, then perhaps I could see a couple of floors collapsing, the force of the 1/2 mil tons being continually reduced with every floor it hits, due to the force 'shearing' huge I beams and 3+ feet of concrete. This downward force would eventually loose momentum to continue 'shearing' I beams and 3+ foot of concrete. IE: The amount of force to 'shear' each floor would have to be the same or more for each and every floor, all the way down. But the amount of force available to 'shear' each floor is reducing with each floor collapsing, due to force being transferred to the floor below it. So it would seem impossible since the amount of available force is reducing with each floor... Thats only the first floor. The next floor will have less force due to laws of physics. Thanks for finding that, I was really refering to the checkout line at any convience or grocery store. I know we can FIND these items that are not deadly to us, but how difficult? I apologize, I meant the Medical Industry would prefer to treat rather than cure. I know Doctors myself who are incredibly caring individuals, but don't spend enough time researching homeopathic and holistic remedies. I admire anyone who is able to day in and day out see the vicitms of our societies evils. There you go again, lumping my arguement in with idiototic arguements to attempt to minimize mine ... I certainly do not advocate people suing for stupidity. I do advocate lawsuits for criminal neglect, especially when a profit is being made from it. If you see this as an attempt to be ir-responsible, please point that out eactly how you see that. I see it as exactly just the opposite, I am trying to get people to BE responsible and educate themselves rather than just buying into whatever the mass media spews. So you endorse food manufacturers adding known carcinogens to their food? Do you also endorse high powered lobbists to buy off certain folks so they can allow them to add the carcinogens? Sure we all have choice about whether to buy them or not. But hell, what if you don't know it can hurt you, what happened to choice? Your wife is a Dr. Do you or she disagree with the statement 'Aspartame is a harmful product?' If it is not harmful, then why do you say that? Cuz the FDA says it is okay? hmm. FDA didn't say it was okay for 16 years... Then within months after Reagan is elected, WHAM!- new FDA chief, and Aspartame is Approved! sound fishy to you? it should... Has anyone heard of flouride? they add it to most municipal water supplies. It is highly toxic at higher levels. But they say it helps make stronger teeth and bones? Well, we should about have no cavities then (if you get city water) and no broken bones. hmm. Do you know where that flouride comes from? It is another industrial waste product that comes from scrubbing the inside of coal smokestacks. (DU is an industrial waste product too!) hmm. more industrial profits at our expense...

Not exactly sure on the point you are trying to make, but if the point is Congress voted in the Federal Reserve Banking (read privatized the monetary system) system prior to the Depression, thus indirectly helping create the depression, then finalizing the removal of anything of value backing the dollar happening in the 70s, then I certainly agree! But then isn't that what Honorable Rep. Dr. Ron Paul was saying in his speech? I believe the speech was his wake up call to everyday citizens.

That is one of those ignored points I was refering to-

Just read this and was interested in comments- http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=%22Gideon+levy%22&itemNo=698698 One racist nation By Gideon Levy Last Update: 26/03/2006 11:03 Contrary to appearances, the elections this week are important, because they will expose the true face of Israeli society and its hidden ambitions. More than 100 elected candidates will be sent to the Knesset on the basis of one ticket - the racism ticket. If we used to think that every two Israelis have three opinions, now it will be evident that nearly every Israeli has one opinion - racism. Elections 2006 will make this much clearer than ever before. An absolute majority of the MKs in the 17th Knesset will hold a position based on a lie: that Israel does not have a partner for peace. An absolute majority of MKs in the next Knesset do not believe in peace, nor do they even want it - just like their voters - and worse than that, don't regard Palestinians as equal human beings. Racism has never had so many open supporters. It's the real hit of this election campaign. One does not have to be Avigdor Lieberman to be a racist. The "peace" proposed by Ehud Olmert is no less racist. Lieberman wants to distance them from our borders, Olmert and his ilk want to distance them from out consciousness. Nobody is speaking about peace with them, nobody really wants it. Only one ambition unites everyone - to get rid of them, one way or another. Transfer or wall, "disengagement" or "convergence" - the point is that they should get out of our sight. The only game in town, the 'unilateral arrangement," is not only based on the lie that there is no partner, is not only based exclusively on our "needs" because of a sense of superiority, but also leads to a dangerous pattern of behavior that totally ignores the existence of the other nation. The problem is that this feeling is based entirely on an illusory assumption. The Palestinians are here, just like us. They will, therefore, be forced to continue to remind us of their existence in the one way they and we both know, through violence and terror. Advertisement This gloomy chapter in the history of Israel began at Camp David, when Ehud Barak succeeded in planting the untruth that there is nobody to talk to on the Palestinian side, that we offered them the sky and they responded with violence. Then came the major terror attacks and Israeli society withdrew into a sickness of apathy never before known to it. While it used to demonstrate complete indifference toward Palestinian suffering, that apathy spread and intensified to include weak Israelis - Arabs, the poor, the ailing. From that aspect the current election campaign, more boring than ever, seems almost like an expression of the state of public caring. Nothing can awaken the Israelis from their coma - not the imprisonment of the nation next door, not the killing and destruction that we sow in their society and not the suffering of the weak among us. Who would have believed that in Israel of 2006, the killing of an 8-year-old girl at short range, as happened last week in Yamoun, would barely be mentioned; that the ruthless attempt to expel an Ethiopian with AIDS who is married to an Israeli, just because he is not Jewish, would not raise hue and cry; and that the results of a poll showing that a majority of Israelis - 68 percent - don't want to live next to an Arab, did not raise a stink. If in 1981, tomatoes were being thrown at Shimon Peres and in 1995, there was incitement against Yitzhak Rabin, now there are no tomatoes, no incitement and not even any election rallies. Nothing can get the Israelis out to the streets, nothing can enrage them. An election without involvement and interest is more dangerous to democracy than any tomato. It is a demonstration of apathy and indifference, which the regime can exploit to do whatever it wants. The fact that there are no real differences between the three main parties, with this one saying nearly the entire country is mine, and that one saying nearly the entire country is mine, is bad news for democracy. The coming elections have been decided already. A massive majority will cast its vote for the racist arrangement that ignores the Palestinians, as proposed by Kadima, Likud and, to a large extent, Labor. None of them tried to propose a just peace; their leaders never said a word about the war crimes and suffering caused by Israel. They'll be joined by the extreme right and the ultra-Orthodox, and there you have it: a nation in which racism is the real common denominator uniting us all. Nearly everyone will say no to peace, yes to the continuing occupation (even if it is in new camouflage) and yes to the total focusing on ourselves. Morality has become a dirty work, and the worst corruption in the country's history, the occupation, was never mentioned. Only one-sided maps, similar to one another, all including the humongous "settlement blocs," a withdrawal based on "our needs," with a separation wall and the frightening air of indifference hovering above it all.

Quite the contrary, I believe the administration has much more to prove that it happened the way they say it did. Many answers that the administration has provided are questionable and it has answered some questions the way some get answered around here- selectively so as to not jepordize an individuals overall position. Questions get too tough, or I fail to bite on the 'less than cerebral' replies, then things simply get ignored. But I suppose it is really a matter of perspective as to what happened, which leads us to having to come to ones own conclusions as to what happened, thus doing ones own investigation. I am just trying to get more folks to demand more answers.

I am not even going to attempt to convince you otherwise. I don't believe that is possible. Which is fine, I respect you and your belief. The way the towers collapsed, just simply watching them fall, and the all too convient really wierd things (finding unscathed passport, positively id'ing 60+ orgainc bodies via DNA @ Pent - but titanium and steel plane being 'vaporized' to the point there is no signifigant wreckage, lack of a real investigation without conflicts of interests by those conducting the investigation, resistance of investigation by administration for almost 1 year, ease which we went to war after events and then quickly justified Iraq war, ease with which they id'ed attackers (like less than 48 hours?), the list could go on ad nauseum). It is just too many odd things, for my brain to not ask more questions.

I am well aware, but feel that risk in minimal compared to the need for the US population to wake the hell up. This country was founded because a group of individuals felt they were getting a raw deal from the British Empire, and didn't want their lives dictated to them. After all, that was why they took the huge risk to come to the new world anyway right? To get away from the oppressive King? To be free. The vast majority of the population at that time supported the King however. But the PATRIOTS fought for the freedom for everyone, even the loyalists. Every day more patriots step up and demand more accountability. The Dixie Chicks were some of the first. Charlie Sheen is one of the latest. google 'sheen 9-11' for one of the most visible 9-11 critics to date - but still not getting any real attention... hmmm.

how/why the WTC came down? It came down via controlled demolition. All 3 WTC buildings fit the description. Why would they do it? That is a cloudy issue that would only come out with a proper investigation. The 911 commission had too many conflicts of interest, and was not an inquiry into what really happened. If you recall, the 'investigation' didn't start until almost 1 year of resisting an investigation. It seems an incredibly odd coincidence that on that particular morning ALL Air Defense stood down. Yeah, saying they screwed up and thought it was a drill sounds WAY too fishy...or convienient. Again why? Well, mr Silverstien did profit quite handsomely from it. Demolished and cleaned up two asbestos filled buildings that he had just leased less than 2 months before? again, sounds way to fishy. Not to mention, fraudulent. Other parties have profited as well. The oil companies who got to get the pipeline contracts in Afgan, not to mention the cluster bomb mfgrs which were bombing runs were typically along the path of the pipeline. The companies that are 'helping' install and maintain 'democracies' in Iraq and Afgan, not to mention all the other countries we have US forces and civilian contractors in. (That would be the Hallibutrons, Bechtel Group, Fluor Corp. read here http://www.opensecrets.org/news/rebuilding_iraq/index.asp) In regards to what could have happened to all those people on those flights, I dunno. If they are willing to kill 3000 people in the towers, then 300 or so people shouldn't be that much more of a problem. It is strange to note that the families of the towers victims have filed lawsuits in NY to get more information released about the attacks. They have been very vocal regarding foul play. The families of victims on the planes however have done the exact opposite and staying totally mum. I find that odd. Anyway, the Pentagon? I see a few airplane parts in some pictures, but not wreckage that supports a 757 plane crash. Beyond that, I am not sure. Some explosion took place, no doubt. Visible. There is alot of unreleased video that could close the issue, they REFUSE to release. slightly new tangent... You know these 'Christians' we have leading our government would seem alot more like Christians if they would only act like them. (And I don't mean the Christians during the crusades...) You know, the turn the other cheek, love your enemies, type. I thought only evil people had a need to kill and tourture people and stuff like that (or have it done). I DO NOT FAULT OUR TROOPS! I am a veteran of the Army and totally understand the position they are in. They take orders. To exist in the military, you follow orders, period. No questions. questions = problems on the battlefield = failed mission If evil people run our government, then they would be capable of anything, wouldn't they? And people that follow orders get promoted, those that don't demoted. Since Washington is a cesspool of power, money and corruption, the most evil will bubble to the top. Is it odd to you that our President's grand father Sen Prescott Bush was investigated (but exonerated) of collaborating with the enemy (Hitler's Germany)? They accused him of stuff like money laundering I believe. This was well after they had declared war on others and was a country to be concerned with. Isn't it odd that our President's father was investigated (but exonerated) in the Iran Contra weapons deals? Do you find it odd that MANY of the folks in our current administration were part of the administration during Iran-Contra? It seems to me that some very strange things have been going on and it is easier to believe that the corrupion and evil is in udder control rather than individuals with strong morals and backbones. It just seems to me that there are way too many negative things going on and not enough individuals demanding the truth.

Here's an article from Christian Science Monitor in 2003- http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0515/p01s02-woiq.html