Orange1

Yeah I would wonder about this too, add Snow's point about mainly oval ones being available there. Also ... sorry if the answer to this is lost in the mist of 8000+ posts, but would Cooper have known that there would be no D-rings brought with the rigs? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Mindsets do set in for different groups, don't they? (Ever looked out a plane window on a commercial flight to check for a clear landing area...?! Always take note of wind direction no matter where you are..?! etc!) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Congratulations

Given the back-and-forth about where the plane was headed... i'm still not convinced. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I'd imagine the airstairs lights were linked to the emergency exit lighting system though? Aren't these lights always on even when cabin lights are off, or do they require someone to flip a switch? (for the countless times i have flown i should know the answer to this...but i don't ) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Ooh conspiracy theorists, sharpen your pencils!! -- The unpressurised request we have discussed before. The plane would have had to be unpressurised to open the stairs (as anyone who watched any airplane disaster move knows), Cooper most likely knew unpressurised up to 10K was no big deal, an easier to convince them of than of depressurising once they got there (as per previous discussion). Besides, if he wanted to bail without them knowing where he was doing it (which makes sense - harder to find), then sending through a depressurisation request just before jumping would be counterproductive Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Well, they opened the stairs regularly when on the ground so presumably they just assumed same procedure? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

There was something in the transcript where they said the plane wouldn't be able to land with stairs down and then take off again - presumably precisely because of this. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

LOL! (pic) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Makes sense they would need something in case of hydraulics failure. Amsterdam is a lovely city, ruled by bicycles. Germany is beautiful, as is most of Europe. Africa is fantastic, at least the southern African countries I have visited. We have had a huge increase in American tourists the past 5 years or so (may change now obviously) with Cape Town and "going on safari" (or what we locals would simply call "visiting game reserves") high on the agenda. Kruger Park, Addo Elephant Park in SA, Victoria Falls (you can stay on the Zambian side but best is to visit both Zim and Zambia), Chobe/Okovango Delta in Botswana all fantastic destinations, as is the Fish River Canyon in Namibia (2nd biggest canyon after the Grand Canyon, though I must admit it pales in comparison). Definitely worth the trip. End of plug. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

the url name you post tells me the instructions come from the fire brigade at Schipohl airport, in fact the English translation would be firebrigadeschipohl/instructions/airplanes/boeing etc. It is a great airport btw, if you ever need to layover on a trip to Europe, choosing KLM and Schipohl is a good choice

And yet everyone still firmly believed it really was a bomb, despite your points above? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

From the verbatim transcript (P for pilot and GC for ground control) (section starting 6:59 PST which correlates with the time on the "summary" bit you have quoted - my distinction on summary vs transcript as per previous post) P: We're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well we've kind of convinced him now we can't take off with them in the ground position, but he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know. GC: What's he want down? P: Back steps. GC: No, no you can't do that. P: We're talking to PAUL and he says we got a plan how we can get them down. GC: No, I don't know, maybe PAUL does. P: We're going to have to go unpressurized and of course he wants the rear down for some reason and he wants the flaps down to 15, I think. [This is the bit that I found ambiguous - the "I think".] He seems to know a little bit about an airplane. He says we'll have to go unpressurized, though; he seems to - I don't know where he picked that up. He said we'll have to go below 10,000. Who is PAUL and why PAUL always capitalised? Is it a name or an acronym?? I should note it is also clear from the transcript that at the same time 305 is talking to GC, they are also talking to "the company" (which I assume to be NWA rather than CIA!) so there is stuff going on that is not in the transcript. Unless this is the summarized stuff at the front. I'm mildly confused. In the "summary", just before the bit Snow is quoting, they do affirm to the pilots that the plane is operable with aft stairs extended. But then there is an exchange where they are talking about lowering the aft stairs "partially" for take-off but are told by flt ops that they don't know any way to lock the stairs in an intermediate position. Incidentally (re 377's post) this is also the section where they get informed that the FFA [who is that??] chief pyschiatrist "believes the second parachute is for the stewardess to use with him to go out, and after he leaves the airplane will be blown up". It's interesting that i don't recall anything in the transcripts to suggest that the bomb was anything but real - the above, a comm from the pilot asking them to move the disembarked passengers further away from the plane in case it goes off etc, yet our conversation here seems to always come back to the idea that the bomb was fake. Can someone remind me why we think this? Do we know for a fact that the bomb wasn't really a bomb? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

McChord was an example - it just sounded to me like he knew of somewhere close by he expected chutes from. But yes, it could as well have been from public knowledge as military exposure. Another unknown unknown. fwiw, re small planes - in SA - in cessnas it is generally still very unusual to see pilots in emergency rigs, even when they are jumpers. (different for turbines, i think this is because cessnas can glide well on loss of engine power). if there are any FAA regs on that in the US, were they in place back then? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Whether or not he intended that, that is certainly the way it was taken... that is also somewhere in the transcripts. I'm too tired to look for it now (it's late here), will check tomorrow for exact wording on that. Also on the "weapons" etc side, there are a few instances where Cooper repeats he will use the bomb if his requests are blocked/denied. I'm sure that wasn't a chance anyone else was willing to take. Sorry in above to clarify when i said waiting for the chutes - it looks like it was the reserves (chest packs) they were waiting for - tho I am unclear as to whether the mains had already been given over to Cooper or not. I'll check up on that again. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Oh yeah.. the transcript. Scrolling through I am again drawn to one of the initial exchanges - where they are still waiting for the parachutes & money. 305 says "He has inquired 3 times now about the chutes. He is not accepting the fact that they are not available locally." Did Cooper have a particular place in mind (like McChord for example) where he was expecting the chutes to come from? There are 2 bits of the transcript as we have noted before, a kind of summary at the front (which i will call "summary" below) and the more detailed bits after that. They at times look like they are not quite the same wording, i'm not sure if the summary is verbatim but the 2nd bit is a verbatim, verified transcription from the recordings so those should be relied on more I guess (this also has relevance for eg the flaps discussion - the "summary' bit says 15 deg, the "transcript" is ambiguous as to whether Cooper asked for that or the pilot inferred it). Anyway on the subject of the toilet episode: "Summary" : 5.47PM PST: "The hijacker is in the lav and think will stay there for a while" (This was before they started to relay the instructions about where Cooper wanted to go, flaps, stairs etc.) Verbatim transcript: "OK he at the present time is in the lavatory and apparently desires to stay there at the present time." And that is all on the subject. Not sure if it has any relevance but it appears that he was in the toilet at the same time as the passengers were disembarking from the plane. Was he just hiding from them?? This all happened before the parachutes arrived, which were the last to get there after the fuel & money. At some point he came out of the toilet but the moment is not recorded for posterity; the next reference to him is that he is writing his instructions. ( Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

wow. it's true. americans seem short http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_height look at US vs Netherlands... I guess it is all that dutch ancestry helping keep our men tall Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

It's in the transcript. Moreover, it is very curious because the pilot says they think Cooper "will be a while" (or words to that effect, I don't have the transcript open right now - will look for the exact wording later). I haven't seen any explanation as to why they thought he would be taking his time... P.S. guys (currently) in their 40s here were definitely not "grown" by hormones in their meat, particularly when their fathers are similar heights... maybe we are just taller in general down here

Have you ever heard the phrase 'Africa is not for sissies'? That does remind me though of this - from a link I have posted before (this was the Air America guy who had spent time in Africa both before and after his Asian work) from http://www.air-america.org/Articles/Sullivan.shtml Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

No re commercial crews and rigs, but there were for example smokejumpers who both kicked cargo in SE Asia and also flew in cargo 727s without kicking out of them. Edited to add what i meant to say before accidentally clicking the post button: I may have missed a beat somewhere (and yes I have made a couple of dumb posts lately) but I wasn't aware we were talking about commercial crews! I was still on the line of thought of people who would have experience donning emergency rigs but not necessarily jumping them. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Matter of perception?? I consider 5'10"-6' to be more average than "tall"... (and yes I am just 5'3" but when I think of the "tall" men I know they are the 6'2"-6'4" ones) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Snow, not sure I agree that just because he served on a flight crew of some sort he wouldn't do it. Big difference between kicking cargo and crewing a passenger jet? In either case it requires an insight into his pyschology that we just don't have. Of course there is also a difference, I presume, between a cargo jet (even if a 727) and a passenger one. Would the rope have been on a cargo jet too? How much would a kicker have known about the rope or axe even if they were normally in place on a cargo jet? And back further, re the ripcord. Anyone know if it was dusted for prints and if it yielded anything useful if so? edited to clarify: I am not assuming Cooper was a cargo kicker, but it is one of those that fits the bill. A pilot donning an emergency rig would know about the rope and axe, but would not (necessarily) have experience standing in a door. Cases where non-jumper pilots have been too scared to lean out to free a hooked-up skydiver spring to mind (vs those pilots who jump who have had no qualms about doing that). I may be reading too much into stuff but I really don't get the impression Cooper had door fear. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

We've spoken at length about the possibility Cooper had exposure to parachutes this way, but i don't think anyone has raised this particular point before - and it is a good one. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I wonder if this adds US AID workers in Nam/SE Asia as ones who might also have knowledge of the 727 airdrops? 377 presumably only the ones who were actually CIA and just using USAID as cover? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Great point - if he opened it using the ripcord. But if he cut the container open to get the chute out, that might pin him as a non-jumper? I don't recall seeing anything at all about the ripcord handle. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.