Orange1

Actually now that i think about it... i am wondering if he was planning on attaching the backpack below the chest reserve, or if in fact he never planned on using the reserve anyway (ref the discussion about the dummy reserve being gone) and was going to clip the backpack there? Of course we have no idea of any of this. It has been suggested that he brought carabiners with him, but he was seen tying (the money? was it ever clear exactly what he was seen tying?) around his waist... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Incidentally, this page has some interesting stuff on the requirements for smokejumpers. http://www.jobmonkey.com/parks/html/smokejumpers.html another page i was reading also mentioned the physical requirements, including carrying a 110-lb pack over 3 miles in under 90 minutes as well as intensive training in, um, fires. We have been so focused on the "jump" aspect we forgot the "smoke" bit I'm surprised Jo has not mentioned anything about Duane's knowledge of fires and fighting them, which would have been extensive if he had indeed been a smokejumper. http://books.google.co.za/books?id=H1bz2kTjyxUC&pg=PT17&lpg=PT17&dq=smokejumper+equipment&source=bl&ots=XsdYm93k5d&sig=U-OlNj47RQLuqH0Oh9HpUrpqk1k&hl=en&ei=z6sZSrPUEaX0Mo_C_Z0P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2 Incidentally, something that was niggling in an extract Georger posted earlier - where Jo had claimed they had seen paople paragliding (though she did not know the term) in 1978 or 1979 and that Duane knew all about it. The first "modern" paragliding flight took place in France in June 1978, according to Wiki. Duane must have been a quick learner. (btw skydivers, it seems the inspiration was an article by Dan Poynter although of course it had been talked about for a while and possibly a few people had launched off cliffs with parachutes before, that seems uncertain though?) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Nice summary, Georger. JUst one thing - about stability with the money bag attached. If Cooper was an ex-paratrooper he would have had experience jumping with heavy loads and probably would have known best placement for stability. There is still a question about the tying-on aspect though; at least for SL, as I understand the procedure was that the "pack" would be clipped on, not secured with rope (then once the parachute was open clips are released so that it hangs a few metres below as one descends under canopy. Not sure how it works for HALO jumps). I think the skydiver consensus seems to be that even skydivers sometimes underestimate the forces involved and lose stuff on exit, so if cooper was a novice chances are he would have too. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

They are if you want to have the majority of your troops being able to walk after they land. All you have to do is look at the injury rates on D-Day landings to see that. And for the most part, they had very specific drop zones already established. A far cry from what Cooper would have been potentially dealing with. Isn't that the point though Quade - the military is prepared to suffer high injury rates to get something done? At least as far as I understand. In one of the extracts I posted a long time ago, I think while we were talking about Christiansen or Gossett, there was a paragraph describing how they would jump in bad weather over uncertain terrain. By the way, am I missing something, or would weather/terrain have any bearing on whether you used SL or freefall to exit? interesting article here: http://www.historynet.com/leonard-rosen-82nd-airborne-paratrooper-in-word-war-ii.htm some extracts: (this is re the invasion of Sicily) (it is unclear what % of this was during the drop and what was in fighting on the ground) I don't know how to get this properly http://books.google.co.za/books?id=QFZ8G-SmVk0C&pg=RA1-PA12&lpg=RA1-PA12&dq=injury+rate+paratrooper+d-day&source=bl&ots=6B6SxU3ssg&sig=pAJejRrprbbI5gXzr3PGnkY4MF4&hl=en&ei=E1UZSvX4I5vMMvTd7YsP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#PRA1-PA12,M1 but on the page re June 6 it notes that "the parachute jump as a method of mass deployment rose and fell with World War II, since high attrition rates from injury and scattering of forces made it a liability". A couple of pages later on the book describes how many of the intended DZs were unidentified by the pathfinders because of cloud cover etc interfering with their own drops. It later talks about one colonel ending up with only 150 out of an expected 600 men because most of the drops had gone astray. And more recently: http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/NSTLQK_NSTL_QK8234115.aspx Looks like a very high load to me; and these guys probably had somewhat better control than the WW2 jumpers? In any case; we have no idea where Cooper's DZ was, or whether it was intended, unintended (jumping later than expected) or if he simply had no idea where he would end up landing...! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I don't see you as naive, but as one of those (rare?) people who always look for the positive side in other people. It's a good trait

Huh? the vast majority of non-sport jumps are static line. look at any footage of paratroopers from WW2, it is all static line. the weather conditiions and terrain make no difference to the manner of exit (perhaps static line is more reliable in certain types of weather conditions though). As I understand it, when you are getting a lot of people out an aircraft in a short time at a pretty low altitude - ie most military and smoke operations - SL is really your only option. my husband was a paratrooper, these comments do not come from ignorance! weather and terrain by the way are not huge deterrents when an operation need to be done... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Why is it any different from all the wierdos everywhere who confess to crimes they didn't commit? For example: Wiki: Over 100 people claimed to have abducted the child in the Lindbergh kidnapping. Over 500 people claimed to have been involved with the Black Dahlia murder. Jo, no-one has "forgotten" about spotters, although perhaps non-skydivers would not think about them. Can someone verify, would spotting usually have been the loadmaster's duty in the military (pre GPS)? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Why is it any different from all the wierdos everywhere who confess to crimes they didn't commit? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

True, and there are enough posts in incidents and safety & training to confirm that. Hmmm... a packed rig out there somewhere...i wonder, if people were looking for an open parachute would they have perhaps missed that? fwiw, I agree entirely with your response to Bruce about the Barb/tandem story. In any case solid research should look for backup rather than just take someone's word at face value? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Very interesting Sluggo... thanks. I have said before how odd it is that Schaffner and Mucklow described the suit as different colours, I am inclined now to think of the suit as black. Also, when he says - firstly, you obviously can get black polyester. Can we deduce that the suit was not polyester and therefore not a cheap suit? (although i don't know how this squares with the clip-on tie and cheap tie pin) - secondly, is thre anything in the article that actually describes how or why his behaviour was "different from the others"? Is it only the quiet vs laughing bit - which doesn't really strike me as unusual for someone travelling on his own? Do we know when the paper sack was first mentioned? On the other hand, can we be sure that some of the aspects that seem to have been left out were not just in the illegible bits (it's hard to tell without actually looking at the copy as you can). Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

subsequent posts more than adequatley answered jo's questions about why the fingerprints didn't match duane's, etc. I don't remember my reply and do not go back to look. As for Weber he was known to carry emory cloth in his pockets. Because Duane did commited other crimes after 1971 and the prints never came back to him...still leads me to believe there is a problem with the prints. He was a 6 time felon who was arrested 2 times afterwards - and his prints didn't come back reading Ex-Con. Both incidents involved a gun in his possession. Himmelsbach told me that the FBI did NOT know if any of the prints belonged to Cooper. The prints on the aftstairs could have been there since the plane was built. As far as Ckret revealing anything more to me about Duane's file...It did not happen. He also promised me copies of his files - remember! I never got those. I had a long discussion with Duane's friend and none of the things Jerry ranted about other than Duane mentioning McCoy ever took place. He did not remember more than one or two phone calls and was under the impression he was talking to the FBI. He said it had been too many yrs to remember anything else. I do not mean to tease about the interview with the night clerk - just somethings have to stay confidential until the time is right and definitely NOT in a thread. There are 2 crucial other interviews that need to take place - and they are being handled. As for Ckret - the article on the FBI site was not a very professional thing to do about the Dan Cooper Comics. And that was after he left the forum. Sorry - but review the places he went in his "theory" and then call me "crazy" or claim that I change my story. He is FBI and I am just a simple woman trying tell what I know. If he had done the things he promised to do in the forum - perhaps I might have some answers, but he chose NOT to do as he said he would. With those file I may have found things they didn't see or were unaware of, but it was the choice of the FBI NOT to send me Duane Weber's files. Did it occur to any of you that perhaps his statement was deliberate? Knowing he had NO intention of sharing Duane Weber's file with me. Can you point to where he said he would send you copies of the files? From what I could see (in the quote above and others) there were plenty of times he bent over backwards to answer your questions, just as he said he would, and spend time on this. The bottom line is that the only thing that will make you happy is proof that Weber was Cooper. This proof clearly doesn't exist, so you have to find all sorts of wierd theories as to why. It would probably embarrass you if I re-posted some of your posts that I came across in the search. by the way if you cannot remember Ckret's very thorough and detailed explanations about the fingerprints - that actually is your problem, not his (or ours). 377, I do not recall any evidence of Cooper wearing gloves. Then again he may have had in his pocket, bag, whatever and put them on before he jumped. Ckret readily admitted that they did not know if any of the found prints were Cooper's; he also mentioned that the real prints of value came from the magazines, but that they had no witnesses that actually saw Cooper reading any magazine. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

in my searches i came across this from ckret, which may be useful to those who have forgotten him in the midst of recent rants: (Jun 3 2008) subsequent posts more than adequatley answered jo's questions about why the fingerprints didn't match duane's, etc. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

this is what ckret said on prints (in response to a Q i asked him if they found any on the airstairs): Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

my memory ain't what it used to be... Ckret, 11 June 2008: Ckret (to Sluggo), 4 Aug 2008: and then this from May 29: Now I am sure that at some stage Ckret said he did eventually get the prints and they didn't check out. I'll try different search terms later... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

re Gossett - didn't ckret say at some stage that the family/cook had sent him either fingerprints or DNA (i can't recall which now) and that he had been ruled out on that basis? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Jo has already confirmed he did not cease his criminal ways; i'm not sure how much he did, but we know from her that he at least stole coats etc from restaurants ...while she was with him. This might be "minor" compared to some of the other things he did, but if someone stole my coat i'd sure as hell lay theft charges. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Jo, please show us exactly where it is said that the DNA is damaged enough to EXCLUDE anyone. And you are conveniently forgetting that no macth for Duane's fingerprints was found. And please don't start on about Duane managing to get his fingerprints altered again... rather go back and read the discussions on that. For most people, exclusions on DNA and fingerprints would be sufficient. But you expect the FBI to act as your personal PI agency and investigate every detail of Duane's life to make you happy, or satisifed or whatever. Why on earth should they waste their time investigating someone who preliminary investigations tell them is not a suspect? Why are you the only person in the world who cannot see why they are not investigating aspects of Duane's life as you keep on asking, no, demanding they do? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I guess everything's relative! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

1. I don't "need" to read any books that i don't want to. I've posted links before about smokejumpers and WW2 btw. 2. The FBI has told you why Duane wasn't Cooper. You just refuse to believe them. 3. Even if your Christiansen source is correct, you need to distinguish between what the DNA can tell you. From what I understand incomplete DNA cannot be used to conclusively match an identity (true) but it can still be used to exclude someone if what is still there doesn't match a sample. 4. I realise none of this is going to make any difference to your conviction that Duane was Cooper - nothing anyone can tell you will. The only thing you will accept is evidence that he WAS, evidence which clearly will never be found. 5. As to what the FBI is doing now, I'd wager 2 guesses: (1) chasing after criminals whose capture will make a difference to American society (2) with regards to the Cooper case, pursuing leads that they think will actually take them to a culprit rather than wasting any more of their time. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I agree with Georger, great insight (I don't recall you mentioning this before?) -- there was some debate earlier about whether the pressure bump actually was the exit but based on other stuff and this I would tend to think it was. Now the only thing we need to do is know we have the right flight path Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Exactly my emphasis, i mean even experienced jumpers have gone in under hard pulls (and let's not forget Cooper didn't have the option of a reserve). If Cooper had no (or very little) experience and he had a hard pull, i'd put very little chance of him surviving the jump. And thanks for repeating the emphasis about things getting lost on jumps! Certainly backs up Amazon 100% there -- non-jumpers just don't understand it (and will not even understand why they don't understand until they do actually jump) ... someone, was it Snow, trying to do a vector calc of the exit forces... i'm sure you can, but that's not gonna capture what it feels like! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Hi SLuggo, I wouldn't say "entirely" different but yes they are certainly different. Can you elaborate on what the experiment referred to was? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

We were slightly more fortunate in that we had a 210 so we could take vidiot up with us, but we did have the issue of having to exit a Porter at Nationals. We were in the novice category so there wasn't HUGE pressure, but we only had 2 training days on the Porter before the comp started. We decided on nailing 2 exits (I can't remember what they were now, this was a couple of years ago) that we knew we could exit stable and then transition to the first point. Sure we lost a few seconds on each jump transitioning to the first point, but we still did very respectably vs. our competitors who had all trained on the Porter and most important of all... we had a blast! PS I don't have a lot of jumps but most of them are in Cessnas the 182 that we use takes 4 jumpers, the 210 takes 5, the 206 & 207 take 6. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Our DZ does 11K for about that price and gets you up there in 30 mins Maybe Cooper just wanted to get to 10K quickly in the Cessna-dominated era Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Georger, I haven't gone look yet but please remind me - had the discussion about the potential hard pull entered yet? I personally think a priori it is impossible to say what chances of survival were unless we know whether or not he had experience and whether or not it was a hard pull. Even before we get to a discussion about where he may have landed. So an interesting discussion, but fruitless, and miles away from either ckret's "he died" or jo's "we know he survived because he married me later". Just like without knowing exactly how Cooper attached the money bag, we have no idea if it came loose or not; but certainly chances are that an experienced jumper would have known more what to expect and prepare for. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.