Orange1

When we did our first jump course, a friend of mine had his heart rate monitor connected (he is very fit, cycles about 15km each way to work each day and gyms as well, ran a half marathon for fun on the weekend, you get the picture) anyway... we did SL so we only went to 3500', but you can clearly see the heartrate climbing presumably as the plane takes off, levels out a while then a sudden move higher (presumably as the door opened) and then an absolutely massive spike which must have been exit. I can't remember any of the actual numbers though.... Bruce, re Tina "clamming up" - by all accounts she was highly traumatized by the incident. Whatever a pop psychologist might think she "should" do, it's understandable that she just does not want to talk about it. And if you look at it objectively, if she were to decide to open up at some stage, a journalist probably wouldn't be first choice... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Spot on quotes Snow, makes me think of the other line ... "what we got here is failure to communicate"... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

For this scam you just need one check: the overpayment (whatever the 'reason' might be). Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I was thinking about this earlier. In all the "why wasn't he caught" crap that leads to conspiracy theories*, we maybe forget one thing: that there were hijacks that led to deaths on the part of other innocent people on the planes when they were stormed, etc. It is entirely understandable why this was handled with kid gloves. * There was an interesting experiment someone did. Two sets of people were given exactly the same facts regarding an (apparently real but actually made up) assassination attempt, except that one group was told the target survived and in the other he died. The latter group had a much higher % of people who thought there was a conspiracy involved. It's the same with a "one who got away' incident i think - no matter what, simply because of what may have been an entirely chance outcome (ie caught or not) there is all this rubbish. We've spoken before about this, but if McCoy had kept his mouth shut and not been caught, I bet there would also be a conspiracy theory about that. Btw, Snow, wasn't meaning your posts had no connection. I certainly think they have at least as much relevance as wild unproven conspiracy theories ranging from MLK and the bay of pigs and the freemasons, to photos of children whose gender can't even be determined and arbitrary people in SLC, etc etc etc - all of which are presented without a single shred of evidence to in any way connect them to the case, yet somehow we are meant to accept those as "relevant" or "on topic" ... (at least until we get shown proof otherwise) all except one poster do not believe there is any connection to Cooper whatsoever. 377's gone quiet, I guess he's busy doing more high altitude jumps...

Snow, we are little in the "all other" category - most of our reserves are in USTs but in the US's scheme of thing we are not big. It's ironic that certain people think this is off the topic (OK, it is) but then talk about other stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with Cooper. Actually this isn't off the topic either - if you consider the theory that Cooper's dollars did end up untraced in Asia

New Bretton Woods. China sells stuff to the US, so US runs a huge trade deficit with China leaving it a net holder of USD so...it buys bonds with them, thus financing the US deficit. Gotta love it. Edited to add (if anyone is interested) cos in fact I should rather have said "bretton woods II" cos "new bretton woods" is more commonly referring to something else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_monetary_systems#The_.22Revived_Bretton_Woods_system.22_identified_in_2003 Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

And another 1/4 is Chinese! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Still being dropped. Didn't you see, one killed an Afghan girl recently when it failed to open? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Unbelievable! And the judge says to them, ""Gentlemen, you are good men who have done a bad thing."" 91 passengers on board! What kind of defense is this?? "At the trial, the pilots had argued that because the 40-minute flight was uneventful. the alcohol they drank did not make them incapable of flying." That's like the DZO busts you for jumping without a reserve, and you say "so what, I didn't need it on that jump"... They were flying from Fargo. Yaaaa... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

i didn't actually expect you to say yes but there we have it - not every jumper who was jumping at the time would have done that jump, even some with many more years accumulated experience since. i still think cooper was one of 2 things: an experienced paratrooper who could have survived the night (note not just the jump), or a novice who didn't. and in either case i don't think "but no-one reported him missing" is necessarily a dealbreaker for these arguments, for reasons discussed before. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

I agree with Cossey. I also think if he pulled right away instability wasn't a big issue. As for ground survival after landing I just don't know. Jerry says dead man Snow says alive. Nigel raises a good point about random ejections. If the chute deploys most live. I don't dismiss Jerrys survival training, local knowledge and jump experience. He states a lot more conclusions than explanations bur you can't say he lacks expertise. As for hypothermia, both Snow (from lots of extreme ice climbing) and Jerry (from military both as trainee and trainer) know a lot more than I do. I remember that base jumper who died from hypothermia in weather that was not extreme. Just one night in a canyon killed him. If Cooper was a whuffo and tried a jet exit freefall instability is guaranteed and recovery unlikely. If you were a whuffo wouldn't you pull immediately? An experienced jumper who knew details of the Air America jumps would likely do the same. If you did that I say you landed alive. 377 What if you tried to pull immediately, but couldn't? How does the scenario pan out then? If you end up pulling later? If you don't end up pulling at all the outcome is obvious... Re the hypothermia, let's not forget that base jumper example. And that he didn't just die because of the weather - he died because he got confused (whatever the technical term is in that circumstance) and started taking his clothes off. In other words, jumping in survivable clothes in survivable weather may not in itself be enough, if there is just enough cold to start disorienting and confusing you... Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

It was night and the weather was bad, but not terrible, IIRC. Yes, I'm saying a novice jumper could have survived, especially if he didn't attempt a FF and pulled on or just after leaving the plane. Once under canopy, he'd be pretty much in the same position as a pilot who had just ejected - minimal, if any, steering ability, can't see FA, at the mercy of the winds, etc. Anyone know if the USAF even teaches pilots how to do PLFs? In these discussions, any thoughts on the shoes Cooper was wearing? 377, re your offer to simulate the jump in the same weather conditions, would you be prepared to do it in loafers? Edited to add: and with a 'hard pull' rig? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Snow is right and skydivers know this. How many skydivers have managed to hit the only obstacle in a large clear area? Object fixation. I'm outta here for a few days...keep the good stuff going guys

Farflung, how small would the (uninflated) water wings pack up? Would they be flat enough to fit inside the normal pocket on the inside cover of a briefcase, for example, or perhaps in a not-too-large paper bag? (possibly along with an alti and goggles...) edited to add: btw, i'm not sure many people here think he actually jumped with the briefcase. true, it has never been found, but surely it is more likely he either purposely chucked it out, or dropped it on exit, than landed with it? Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

for me it was never about 'bashing' Jo, although the frustration with trying to make her see the illogical arguments and inconsistencies in her thinking may have come out that way. my pledge is simply not to respond to her at all - which i find easier if i don't read her posts, because then i don't feel an urge to try make her see sense. i repeat: it was never intended to be 'bashing'. i work in a field where good people/companies will root out inconsistencies in the arguments (analysis, research, investment cases) they are presented with. good analysts will take it in the way it is intended and seek to improve their work. bad analysts just get defensive, and will never get rated or make money for their clients. we take our responsibility of investing for people's retirement very seriously and have no room for people who are not topclass in their ability. i tend to transplant this way of thinking to a lot of other things, i guess it is just the way i am. sorry if that comes across as too harsh sometimes. btw one of my PET HATES is people who try twist facts to fit their theory. I am strongly of the opinion that if your a priori expectations are not borne out by the data/evidence, you need to find a new theory/approach. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

agree. it's just figuring out where to look... ..hopefully it doesn't lie around as long as the anglo-saxon gold as per my post the other day!! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Protecting kids from everything doesn't prepare them for adulthood. I saw something the other day that I think sums it up: Your job as a parent is to let your children burn themselves, but prevent them from getting third-degree burns. And parents' perceptions of danger are relative. Skydiving is the classic example of that Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

You've just reminded me we had a copy of Flightsim. Dunno where it is..maybe should go look for it! I took my eye test for my drivers license renewal today and i could not get all the bottom line (the pilots line, it's only them who have to pass that line). Guess i wasn't made to fly stuff for real. No-one cusses quite like Samuel L. Jackson do they... although nothing will compare to Pulp Fiction, I love that line (it was a supremely silly movie but lots of fun). (And if you had just said "Neville Flynn" I would have had no idea who you meant Jules, now, that would have been a different story ) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Georger - won't you join 377, JT and I in our "don't respond to Jo" phase - it really makes life much more pleasant. Much easier if you don't read what is in her posts either never MIND if trips are cancelled or hoaxes or if there are a million pieces of 'evidence' which are on the verge of being revealed yet never are (or turn out to be leaps of logic rather than evidence). ignore all that! concentrate on the useful (or at least potentially useful) stuff. flight paths, finding hidden stuff, bruce's investigations and so on. while i do not go along with certain of bruce's, um, methods i will listen to his plea to keep an open mind. after all, all that stuff on Vietnam, SOG etc etc was interesting but was (mainly) posted because it may have a link to the case. farflung, you've hit a bit of turbulence here, hope you keep flying through it - most of us are finding what you have to say interesting/useful! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Not sure if this has made the news over there. Just goes to show what "amateurs" can do, especially using methods of which many would say "you don't really believe that's gonna work, do you..." from http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Staffordshire-Hoard-Largest-Ever-Anglo-Saxon-Gold-Find-Unearthed-With-Metal-Detector/Article/200909415388189 Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

OK, I admit it. Bruce has baffled me. At first I thought the alien stuff was a joke, then it looked like it wasn't. Now the teleportation clearly is... am i just being a complete idiot and taking Bruce seriously on his some of his views when they are about as real as Snow's amusing posts?! I'm lost. Whatever, I will chuckle to myself on whatever I find funny, while still showing much appreciation for the digging on the Cooper case. (btw: I fully believe there must be extra-terrestrial life out there. I just don't believe anyone who claims to have actually seen an alien here. like Jerry says, keep an open mind, and I will; but so far i have yet to see any convincing proof that aliens have ever landed here, with the possible exception of the Nazca lines, but now this is really thread drift going too far...sorry!) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Is Antarctica a continent? If so, what are your plans? Do the Slovenians have an Ice Station Zebra down there? I think the Argentines have a few. Ricky Nelson's "Travelling Man" comes to mind... 377 (sheeesh...americans ) Of course Antartica is a continent! It's a land mass, not ice like the Arctic. Interesting fact: did you know it is the driest continent in the world? I don't think there are any permanent (human) residents but there are long-term stays. And once you're there for winter, you're there. A number of countries have bases there, including our very own SANAE. You can get cruises to Antarctica from SA. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

FOIA pages are amazing. I mean, they don't have to put it on the net right - they can wait for people to send them applications. So I think they are being more open certainly than the letter of the law allows them to be. Arbitrary choosing "F" in the FOIA "reading room" - amazing also the number of entertainers etc had files - Ella Fitzgerald, William Faulkner. Douglas Fairbanks Jr, Errol Flynn just among the first few. I guess McCarthy had a lot to do with that. FBI history page there too which is quite fun :) ...as well as FBI undercover ops, their terrorist photo album from 73-89 ... just the list of Fs goes on forever. edited to add: i guess Faulkner would have objected to being called an "entertainer". Ian Fleming was there too, he would probably have been happy with that description ;) Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Thanks Snow, will take a look. In the meanwhile, this doesn't really sound like an agency involved in cover-ups; if they were, surely they would indeed have "found" appropriate "individuals" to blame?! Various theories concerning the origins of the mutilations were explored by the FBI, including satanic cults, UFOs, pranksters, and natural predators. The investigation failed to identify any individuals responsible for the mutilations. Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Um... Bruce you know I appreciate the stuff you dig up and write on. generally. but. but really, aliens or govt conspiracy more likely than 'satanists' (by which i would mean self-styled satanists rather than people who really have the devil appearing to them, or whatever) i agree with G the cattle mutilation is a sad thing, but unless someone is going with the Cooper-was-abducted-by-aliens theory (and yes I have seen this one floating around too) I'm not sure it has any relevance. I'm pretty certain aliens have no relevance anyway. edited to add the wiki article on the subject, though i would really like to get back to topics of hijackers and real, proven people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_mutilation Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.