Michele

Well, obviously you both fly....does kryptonite actually take you out too? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Curious as to what else you saw? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I agree...none would enter my home. Except criminal records aren't available for me to check out...especially for "day work", under the table, cash money rake the leaves kind of thing. If what people are upset about is the naivety of the Smarts for allowing criminals in their home, then one also needs to look at the religious aspect - giving people another chance, forgiving the sin and not rejecting the sinner, and so forth. So if folks are upset at that, understand the situation and familial structure first, before chasing the father for not crying... And I also have to add that I've seen my father cry, and there were no tears either. And it was at the funeral of his sister, my aunt. If there is fault to be laid, lay it where it belongs - with Emmanuel Mitchell, and perhaps to a very small extent the SL Police for not dropping everything and openly pursuing Mitchell when the family brought it to their attention. However, that aspect, as well, has not been fully discussed, and so I am not quite ready to whack the police around just yet, either. Just my .02.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hey, have you guys ever heard of Stockholm syndrome? It's where hostages identify with their captors...Patty Hearst comes to mind, and so on. People in crisis do odd things. Remember that she was taken from her home, in the middle of the night, at, as it now seems, at knifepoint. Elizabeth is a shy, intelligent child, very attached to her siblings and parents. Had there been a threat, say, of death to her sister Mary Kathrine, or to her little brother, even if to us as adults safe and sound in our homes that is ridiculous, Elizabeth may have believed it, and not done a thing. It is not the first time this would have happened, and will not be the last. Emmanuel Mitchell is very religious, very much like a Jim Jones in the making, according to released reports. His stepdaughter has also mentioned the use of drugs, which adds still another factor to her plight...although these have been unstubstantiated. The story is with Emmanuel Mitchell, not with Elizabeth's father not crying. I mean, c'mon, guys...it's less than 24 hours old...let the facts come out before you start whacking a father around for not crying, for heaven's sake. As for the original question, yes, I'd take the $$. And give a whole heck of a lot of it to charity, or to a missing children's fund (that is reputable). The rest I'd use to get out of debt (and buy gear), and start a fund for my neice and nephew to go to college. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I was a little worried it was you...until I opened the attachment. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

The points he made were based on a comment about baggage, and his feelings about service in general. As he wrote the letter beginning with baggage, I figured the rest of it was simply baggage, as well....when he brought in commentary about the Romanovs, and began to chastise Colin Powell, I got really clear that his "baggage" was his personal inability to agree with the current administration. Therefore, because he brought nothing new to the mix, and because I couldn't find even a bio of him on the web (which may be because of my search skills rather than it not existing...) and thus couldn't find any information as to what position he actually resigned from, there wasn't anything else to say other than it seems he handled his problem the way he chose for himself...for his reasons, and for his own self-satisfaction. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Mark, I can't even agree with keeping a nail or two around the house. You never know when someone will break in and steal them...and, besides, you can always call a carpenter if you need a nail for something. There is simply no reason for keeping them around. Furthermore, those carpenters? They should have to have background checks, and massive amounts of paperwork. They should be required to account for all nails at the drop of a hat to whichever government authority would be set up to investigate renegade nail traders. And they should be restricted on buying them except, say, on certain hours on Wednesdays. That way, it would be very easy to track the sale of them. And yes, I do believe there is a serious psychological issue with someone who has "nail envy"... ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hi, Kallend... Agreeing with Kmcguffee in toto, and adding my own thought... From someone in the Foreign service, I would not expect this sort of commentary...the phrase "baggage" denotes, in pop-psych, something you don't want to have, carry around with you, and wish yourself rid of. It would seem he did just that... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

you might want to pm Shotgun...I think she has it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Kallend, with all due respect, I really see that whole issue as a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of thing. If we really didn't plan out how to handle the problems that will occur should we go to war, then we would be accused of cavalier destruction, and wanton disregard for the Iraqi people. When we do look to the future and realize that there is something we a)need to do and b)can be done, and take steps to do it, we are lambasted and ridiculed. As for it being an "American only" club, there is far more technology here in the US which can be moved/used there, less expensively, more productively, and with massive experience than, say, France...or Germany. Furthermore, it looks more and more like it will be perceived as a unilateral action, why shouldn't it be a unilateral "clean-up", as well? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Kris is, honestly, a good man and a kind friend. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Oh. Sorry. I must've forgotten myself... But still, really, I won't keep nails in the house. And if I had children, I would not allow them in the houses of people who keep nails, either. And I think we should make some new laws which say that nail manufacturers should be held liable. Have you ever read a nail box? There's no warning. Nothing. They simply don't care. They just want the profit on the penny nails... (how the heck do you get that new evil face thing?) ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

We should ban all nails. Those things are dangerous! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

ROFL @ Wildblue...that was funny.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Yes ma'am, it's like a really big beam, huge, direct florescent one. WHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! And preliminary reports are that she's physically healthy. She has a wonderful and supportive family, great faith, and hopefully great counselling, and she will be alright over time. This will be a fascinating story... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

There isn't any loophole in kharma...that being said... Sending you mucho good vibes... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

(I moved my original post to the first thread...)... Jumpergirl, I grabbed the phone and called my boss to let him know. We had talked many times about it last year, and wanted him to know. I could hear his voice close up when I told him. Man, how amazing...how incredibly, wonderfully amazing... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Confirmed that she has been reunited with her family. I broke out in goosebumps when I heard....and my heart filled with joy. Press conference at 6:30 Salt Lake Time... Oh, thank GOD!!! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

what arlo said...

Why do you think so, and who do you think will do it? And yes, I am aware of the situation. I just found this comment to be really scary, and would like to understand why you think that, Rob. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

So again, what sources would you consider evidence that I could produce? I mean, neither of us are privy to UN/US intel, right? (I know I'm not). So it would have to be public media. How about PBS? You mentioned the WA Post as a source you used in the past to present something. May I use the same calibre of source? Please, name your "credible" sources so that I can search them out there and see if it meets your criterion for accuracy. That way, if there is something, I can show it to you without you immediately dismissing it out of hand, without you "disagreeing" with it before you have the time to check it out... I'm not assuming anything, Bill...I am saying that there is inaccurate data all around, from all sides (including mine...) Disinformation is a great tactic during wartime, right? Should someone use inaccurate data, then it follows logically that the conclusions would be inaccurate, as well. Not a personal critique, not at all... It's like if you don't balance your checkbook correctly, and you make the conclusion that you had enough money in your account to buy a sofa. You write a check, and now discover you don't have the money. That was an inaccurate conclusion based on inaccurate data. And when you have a chance, could you please link for me the reports about the increase in terrorism that you have referred to? Not that I doubt you (let me be very clear and concise...I don't doubt you!!!

I wasn't talking to Gawain...I was talking to you. Your parity. Your balance...not Gawain's. In the context of what you said originally, you indicated, by paranthesis, that you meant Patriotism as flag colored glasses. Therefore, I responded to what you wrote. As for flag colored glasses, I don't own a pair. But do I have a deep and abiding love for my country? Most definitely. Do I have a sincere desire to see it do right? Again, most certainly. Do we make mistakes? Most certainly. Is this still the country I'd choose to live in over all others? A resounding YES...but that doesn't preclude me from being able to see it's faults. Nor does it preclude me from being able to research and understand issues. Nor does it mean that I am anything bad or wrong, as I've seen others called for having strong feelings. To your credit, you have not used that word to describe people. However, there are some who do, and that is what I am addressing... Nope, I don't take your refusal to change your mind as an insult, either. However, that isn't what I was saying. What I was saying was simply that, should anything be forthcoming, you'd work your best to pick it apart (even if it couldn't be), and then deny it because it threatens your position. That's human nature. As to your thought that "many things we've been hearing are inaccurate", I would pose that yes, from all sides, we have inaccurate data. Not only is the data inaccurate, any conclusions based on inaccurate data must also be inaccurate. But what I was addressing in my post to you was simply this: when you only look at one data set, and not expand your consideration onto others, you are limiting your data and thus limiting your conclusions. I wasn't talking about me, Bill. And yes, it is important to separate respect for ideas and respect for people. I was talking to a friend last night about this, and she was saying something negative about you...and I laughed. I said, "look, I have bifurcated my opinions about Bill's policitics and rhetoric, and still have immense respect for him as a person". But it's also true for me that one needs to show ideas respect until they are undeserving of them. It doesn't mean that it is acceptable to attack them, demean them, out-of-hand. I haven't thought of all possible sides of things on everything. I can't. A good example is this: Cajones' calling for the assistance of everyone's computer in this forum to resolve a medical issue is asking for input from everyone...and I think ideas are a lot like that. If someone poses something, an examination of all posts, positions, rhetoric or concrete, factual or tin-hat time, will lead towards a good, well-rounded conclusion . And if the information is not readily accessible nor available, then a search can contribute and fill in gaps. Immediate denigration and out-of-hand dismissal is useless, and disrespectful to that person. In this specific example, if I said there was evidence that 9/11 was connected to Iraq, you would immediately lambast me and that posit. You've done it already...consider the post which began this conversation...and you did not even take the 30 seconds to verify data...it is that rush to judgment that I find disturbing. That immediate negation is detrimental, and prevents people from open and honest discourse. I know it has curtailed my willingness to converse with you on the subject, irrespective of learning information from you which I include in my data set... You know me well enough to know that reading something for fodder is not my nature. And lol at you for the last line. I don't like to make assumptions...and so, as I asked for and received clarification of your meaning, I shall accept that as truth... Look carefully at what I said, Bill....and you will not see the word "uncaring". I do not believe you to be uncaring...not in the least. As to inflexible, I do see you as such on certain things, and find it fruitless (after what, something like a year??) to engage you in discourse at times. Your refusal to consider other points of view at times is very frustrating. As for why I continually try, I've asked myself that. And I think it's because I do respect you, as a person, and consider you intelligent. I enjoy reading your positions when they are clearly thought out and not rhetorical; when they are honest and not a general negation of everything around you; when they are presented as your opinion and not as a shoot-down to someone else's points. Much in the same way I read Gawain, and when presented with something I don't know about, I note it and research it later. I do learn from you, when you are not being inflammatory and dogmatic. I do think you have things to share, that you feel very passionate about. I would like to learn from that, and share with you my thoughts, and passions....but you're not willing for that to occur...that is what I meant by inflexible. I never said uncaring. As for the jumps, that was said to prove a point. If you don't see how that spurious and utterly untrue statement hurt me, then that is your loss. I do believe that you did it accidentally, but I also think you don't care that you did it. And buying jumps would've been nice...but I didn't think you'd do it, either. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

hi, Harry... what I was looking for was some commentary like "nah, when they're 18, they move out, get their own pad with 47 other singles, and live the high-life" or "no, they are kept in the family, near the family, and family is the largest influence on their lives". I did't mean how nicely they treat "their" women, how many rights women are "allowed" to have, etc. For example, there are many college age middle eastern men here right now...is it customary for them to come home and enter the family business, if there is one, or stay here and branch out on their own? How long does the familial ties stay binding the youth to the family, and how much influence does the parental figures in the family have on the youth? More of a cultural aspect, rather than hard numbers...and more on a religious thing, rather than a social kinda thing. Make more sense? But your point is well taken...and I appreciate your input. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Agreed. But other things need to be brought to the fore, as well, such as Chirac's and Hussein's long relationship; France selling a lot of military aircraft (as well as Russia) to Iraq; Germany's harboring of the 9/11 suspects (not that my saying that means "Let's go get revenge on Iraq"). The export market France has with Iraq; and the 10% (+/-) of the French population which is Islamic. The oil France is importing. The connection between Saddam and Palestine, his funding the suicide bombers; our attempts to buy back the Stinger missles from the Mujahadin...and on and on. Instead, while we learn from your posts, there is a whole rest of a world out there, with complicity, duplicity, and malintent...and you do not ever discuss that. There is no parity, no balance, in your argument...and that is what I am referring to, not the history of the United States. The continual "we've done just as bad" without ever balancing it with "hey, while we funded the Mujahadin, the Russians were taking over a country, kinda like Saddam did in '91...but we couldn't take them on directly because they were a serious nuclear power, so we did what we could to assist them at that time...and when the tide turned, and we realized how dangerous this was, we tried to buy the missles back...but got beat out by some Saudi dude...". Your intimation that american action is the only action which you care about speaks to isolationism, and yet you profess otherwise. I would like to see some "otherwise"...that's all. Parity. Balance... Patriotism is not bad. Wherever you got that idea, you got a bum deal. Patriotism does not stop you from thinking, does not stop you from discussion, does not stop you from researching and developing your own mind; patriotism (or flag colored glasses...) is nothing more than a deep and abiding love for your country. Some might argue that this love manifests in service to your country; some might argue that this love manifests in hypercriticism. Some might even argue that this love comes from working, doing your thing, and creating the american dream. Whatever the position, it does not negate others' positions...and doesn't render them thoughtless, inadequate, or insignificant. And if someone doesn't believe as another, there is NO call for labeling them "sheeple". And we cannot ever be better without seeing the truth of things - all things, all over the world. We cannot understand what is going on with France, for example, until we look a little deeper than surface level at their import/export data. But Bill, if I were to demonstrate to you that there is an Iraqi connection at worst as tenuous as Pat Robertson's funding, you would not change your tune. You would find something wrong with it, something inaccurate. You'd pick it apart and have little respect for the idea, let alone me, for bringing it into the conversation. You would malign me, as you did in your above post. You would insist that you assumed it was me, (when I've never said something like that) because you have a deep seated preconception - and misconception - that I felt that way...and you would not check out the fact of the matter, as you didn't when you posted what you did. How do you know which position is mine? Have you asked? Or have you done more assuming? To lay that one at my feet, without any proof, as you did in this post, tells me that you have no room for any information I, or anyone else, will present to you, irrespective of how well researched, how well supported, or even how simply interesting. Your mind is made up, and no amount of evidence anyone can supply here at DZ.com would be adequate to you. And so, because I see this as your position, see you as inflexible and uninterested in finding the answer, it is useless to even offer you anything which you may not have known, may not have considered. No-one can know everything, Bill, and I certainly don't make that claim. But your apparent unwillingness to see the whole picture, rather than just a narrow view, creates an unwillingness to even bring anything to you to consider. Include history, by all means. But balance your history, too. Widen your views, instead of just looking at the american aspect. Look to the whole situation, look into why someone is saying what they are, what is the story behind the story in a worldwide sense. Your narrow focus, Bill, limits your ability to create intelligent and considered replies. As to getting answers I don't like, um, well, yes, that's expected. What I do expect, frankly, is intellectual honesty, and checking of facts. As your post ascribing a position to me which does not belong, you didn't do that...you made an emotional post (granted, in an emotional thread...as did I make an emotional post...) and didn't bother to check it out as you were so sure of yourself and your assumption. And you were wrong...(and you still owe me 5 jumps...

Those downplanes were fun to watch...and them hooting and hollering made it seem like it would be fun. Of course, how many of you could actually see Airweenie intentionally doing CRW, despite being invited to?? Yikes.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~