GQ_jumper

The practices at Guantanamo Bay are a gross violation of the Geneva convention. There is no such legitimate designation as 'enemy combatant.' Someone is either an enemy soldier, eligible for the protections under Geneva or they are a civilian criminal who has no business at a military detention centre. 'Enemy combatant' was a designation invented by the US administration and/or brass specifically to circumvent the Geneva convention. Other than in a 'prisoner of war' context imprisoning people for years without trial or representation is a war crime. I am well aware and agree with you 100% that "just following orders" is not an excuse, which is why I strive to make the right choice in every situation I find myself in out here. However, it is a FAR stretch to say I am guilty of violating anything simply by placing a detainee in a detention facility. Like I said before neither of the other options would have a positive result. Not to mention that now basically everyone we roll up goes straight into the Iraqi justice system, not ours. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I am not in the US, I am in a combat zone, obviously my actions and priorities would be far different if I were ever to find myself in one of the situations you just described. It feels like you were trying to cross my situation over to another one to create an argument that doesn't apply to my particular situation. If I read your post wrong however I apologize. Like you said, I am here to help re-establish peace, and I do this by rolling up those responsible for threatening innocents. Obviously there are times when our efforts have to be focused on those that are a threat to us, but once again that's par for the course over here. I think this is one thing in this argument you and I seem to agree on, hey its a start I'll give ya two outta three, I don't fair too well with that whole stay safe part, makes for a boring trip take care History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

No you don’t have any rights. Occupying armies have no rights. Quote Do your homework buddy, even under the international laws you are crying about me violating by being here I still have the inherent right to defend myself. According to your little interpretation I have no other right apart from walking out in the street unarmed and waiting to take one in the chest. Step back for a second and think about how that sounds, pretty rediculous huh? Not to mention the fact that WE AREN'T AN OCCUPYING FORCE. I figured I would throw in that fact even though you have proven that you don't have the ability to see things for what they are. By definition you must have military control to be an occupying force, well guess what, we don't have military control, the Iraqis do. I know your media sources(which obviously know more than those of us here on the ground) says we call the shots. When in actuality we don't roll without the Iraqis being OK with it. Yes we are still conducting our own operations against insurgents, with the OK from the Iraqis that own the battlespace. We are becoming more and more of a support asset for them giving them extra manpower where needed. So by definition we are in no way an occupying force, which would mean in your realm that I now have the right to breathe again. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

How would I be guilty of violating the rules of the Geneva convention by turning a captured enemy combatant in a detention facility? there is no justification for that, that's like saying that a man who owns a gunshop and sells a pistol to someone who later uses it to kill someone is guilty of murder. What would my other options be, let the man I just risked my life to take alive go free, or execute him, one would put me in jail and the other would put me at risk of being killed by the man I just captured then freed. Nice try. How does putting my teammates first destroy my legitimacy, it seems that you would just rather celebrate over the dead bodies of myself and my fellow teammates. There is nothing that takes away from my credibility in my priorities, the men I serve with come first, these men are my family, I don't have a wife and kids to go home to, at the moment I don't even have a home to go back to. When I get home I'll be living in the team room at work or on one of my teammates couches until I find another home. Everyone else on my team besides me has a wife and kids, or fiance waiting for them to come home and I intend to make sure every one of them get to see them again even if it means me not making it back. And even though I'm using MY TEAMMATES as the example that priority extends to all Coalition soldiers, we're all on the same team. Just behind my teammates safety comes ANY innocent person, it makes no difference if they are US or Iraqi, an innocent person is an innocent person no matter their nationality and their safety comes before mine. However, I have not yet been put in the situation where I had to make the decision of one of my men or the life of an innocent, it's never come up at the same time, and until that time comes(which I hope it never does) then who knows exactly who I'm going to drag to safety first. The other two, I don't believe need justification, they're self-explanitory. All you're trying to do is paint me as evil simply because I wear a US military uniform, and it's a pretty pathetic attempt at that. I know you have some crazy notion in your head(as your post shows) that tells you all US soldiers sign up to satisfy some type of sick bloodlust, but if you would take a second to step away from your twisted view of things and get to know a few of us you may realize that we are no different than you. I live, breath, and bleed the same as you, deal with it. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Shit man, I don't know. I know if I was over there again, I would shoot first and ask questions later. Yes, some innocents could die, but to fucking bad. We are all just pawns in the big game - don't put your life at risk over someone else's politics. Quote As far as that would go to protect ME we both know it's the wrong answer, my job is to protect those innocents so long as it doesn't come at the expense of my teammates. and just like you said, we are all pawns, soldiers are nothing more than a tool of politicians, it's our job to risk our lives for someone elses politics. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Shites killed the Al Queda leader yesterday. Reports say that the Shite faction in Iraq is beginning to understand that US forces are alies and when Al Queda is run out there can be peace. So in that regard they are beginning to band together to kill Al Queda forces. Quote I can't give specifics but I've been seeing a LOT more incidents like this than the news is letting on. There are countless villages that have recently taken up arms to drive out insurgents and assist US and Iraqi forces. It's horrible that so many civilians were lost to suicide bombers and such but it opened everyones eyes to who is making an attempt to help and who is intentionally hurting them. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Excellent way to put it Bill, your post just explained(better than I could) what I was trying to get across. The excuse that we are here ilegally and therefore anything I do makes me a war criminal is a BS justification for the other sides point. And with Kallend's statement, I understand the point he was trying to make but I don't think it was the best analogy for this particular situation. The only thing I was arguing was that despite what E.M. thinks there is no justification to punish troops on the ground whether this war is legal or not so long as the individuals follow proper ROE and abide with the rules set forth in the Geneva conventions. Me personally, I do whatever is necessary to 1)bring my teammates home alive, 2)protect innocent civilians, 3)accomplish the mission, and 4)bring myself home safe, in that order of precedence. I wouldn't consider my actions to be a "crime of agression" as it was put earlier. And your final question Bill, I wouldn't consider that attack legal or illegal, it's combat. What would be considered legal or illegal would be how the individuals handle themselves in the engagement, shooting a person who is unarmed and surrending therefore making themself a non-combatant, that is illegal, attacking a base full of combatants, well.....if you want to attack an entire base then rock on with your bad self History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

If someone broke into your house and you shot at them, would that give them the right to shoot back at you to protect themselves and their assets? Quote So am I to understand that I have no legal right to come home alive? I'm not entering people's houses to steal their possesions, if I'm going in someone's house it's because we have been ordered to detain one of the occupants of the house, basically I am serving a warrant. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

That doesn't apply to a broad set of orders such as deploying to combat. That would only apply if I was given an order to do something like execute an infant and I complied. Simply because I am here in Iraq doesn't make me a criminal, remember, congress voted to send me here and whether or not the rest of the world agrees with it the US did go through a diplomatic process to avoid this war. Saddam just didn't want to play nice. So let me get this straight, the next time I get shot at I have no legal right to shoot back, is that what you're saying, cause it sure sounds like it. Regardless of the reason for which I 'm here I still have the right to do whatever is necessary to protect myself, teammates, and Coalition assets. Nice try buddy, but I don't think I'll be ending up behind bars under any of you "charges", despite your wishes for it to be so. Just curious, have you always had such a hate for US soliders? Or do you just have some sort of a god complex because you're "free-thinking" enough to see the light? History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

In a world that worked on basic principles of what is right for one is right for everyone? crimes of aggression. Quote Even in your perfect world there is no basis to charge us on the ground with anything of that nature. When a man tries to kill you and you end his life that is not agression. And those who have killed innocents intentionallyare being investigated and tried for their actions. And zipp0, what's the age cutoff for that cause I'm having trouble getting my numbers right History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the LORD." Quote I was waiting on someone to mention that, as I understand it just getting a tattoo is a sin, so if you got a tattoo that glorified sin wouldn't the two negatives cancel each other out and make you a saint?? If that's true i'm definitely going to heaven, cause I'm covered in naughty tats History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Which they would be with the exception that international laws apply to everyone except the most powerful states Quote Well by all means please tell me what I should be charged with when I get home so I can get in touch with a good lawyer and start building my defense History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Tony B'liar! Quote I don't quite think he was the one that the statement was intended for it sounded to me more like he wanted to see the soldiers on the ground charged with committing war crimes just for being in Iraq. At least that's how I took it. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

That's a great story!! Hopefully some butt-cheeto won't give your team any detail requiring the clean up of yellow puddles. Quote Yeah, those FOBits are scared little creatures that frighten easily History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Possibilities: 1) He knew that he had ordered an attack against the US, and decided that listening to a child read a story (while he was on video) was the best possible cover for his evil deceptions, or 2) He was trying to process what he had just been told and didn't quite know what to do, so he sat there. >American Airlines Flight 77 is the only airliner in the sky with its transponder signal off . . . But certainly not the only return on the scope with its transponder signal off. That alone would not be sufficient to alert ATC that a hijacking was taking place. A hijack transponder code would have been - but it was not received. >F-16's have a top speed of 1500 MPH . . . . . . . which they cannot reach carrying external stores, and do not reach when flying within the continental US. Quote OH MY GOD!!! Bill you just solved the mystery of 9-11 Some of those questions the victims families wanted answered were completely stupid and asinine, they act like it's bush's job to simply sit in the NMCC and issue orders during an attack, despite the fact that the NMCC is a self sustaining asset, bush just makes general decisions that affect large scale events, after a lengthy process of getting his decisions approved. And looking for individuals responsible for not preventing the attack, that's just going on a wich hunt and looking for someone to hang, just because we are attacked doesn't mean one of our own needs to be punished, if we punished a commander everytime there was an attack on troops in Iraq we would be running very short of commanders And as mentioned before you can't scramble fighters in the US and have them break the sound barrier over our cities to intercept a commercial flight, the amount of chaos that would create would be insane. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I think its only a matter of time before people start being charged with war crimes for carrying out what they belived to be legal orders. Quote Such as? History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

You act like Bush has some secret decoder ring that sends him an insant message when the country gets attacked. Remember, when the first plane hit the WTC it wasn't clear to anyone with the exception of those at NORAD that it was a hijacked flight that had crashed. Information can only move so fast, and as said before what did you want him to do? He doesn't control all the little moving pieces that secure our country, he oversees the administration as a whole, it's not his job to make the decisions of when and where military or security assets are put in place. All you're doing is fishing for the answer you want and no matter how much someone justifies anything you want believe it unless its what YOU want to hear. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I bet they wont get any pleasure out of "torturing"Quote Does giving me a "guided tour" of the females showers on the FOB count as torture History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Dan admit you just wanted the front row and this was the only way to clear out the rif raf. Quote It was some crappy Air force ban I had never heard of before, no one from the team bothered to go, besides why would I want to go watch some band play when there was a cute little Korean girl from the CA unit across the FOB asking to come over and see me History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

it's only politics when the "other" side abuses it when it's "your" side abusing it, it's a "very important statement" Quote This is true, and can you imagine the finger pointing that would ensue if someone proposed keeping the flag at half mast til the war is over. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

LOL! I wish I had been there! No, wait. Where are you? No, I don't. Quote This isn't exactly the first time I've caused trouble for the rest of the FOB since I've been here this trip. Last week my buddy and I decided to see how big of a hole a thermite would put in the hood of a car so i dropped one on the vehicle body we have on the range for rehearsing vehicle takedowns. After the thermite burned out some of the metal was still smoldering and it was slowly spreading so I dumped a sandbag out on it to smother the flames. That didn't work so well and the fire was slowly creeping towards the dashboard, so my buddy started heading to the back of the range to grab a case of water and by the time he was 20 feet away it hit the dash and spread to the seats and the vehicle turned into one big fireball instantly pouring out a huge black cloud of smoke that covered the Helo pad. He walks back over to me and says "yeah so uh, that was a really bad idea!!" There isn't much left of that ar anymore History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

**disclaimer**This story is actually bonfire material, but I've noticed there is a contigent of people who insist on getting entertaining stories moved to SC so I'm going to beat them to the punch and post it here. So apparently I'm the grinch now! There was a USO show on my FOB last night, I had heard rumor of it but it wasn't any real famous celebrities so my team didn't attend. Instead we spent the evening disposing of some unusable 40MM rounds, there was a handful of them laying around the arms room when we moved in and I wanted to get rid of them so I had our engineers build some charges so we could clear them out. We took them out to the range at the back of our little compound and set them off a few at a time. We made it a point before we did this to call the base commanders office and let them know what we were doing so no one would panic when they heard the blast but apparently that wasn't enough. After the first charge went off the phone in our ops room started ringing off the hook telling us to cut it out because we were scaring the attendees at the USO show. Well that word didn't get from the ops room to me out on the range fast enough because right after that call we set off a second charge twice as big. We haven't gotten all the details yet but the rumor is that everyone at the show spent about 15 minutes hiding in a bunker thinking they were being hit with a rocket attack. I thought it was pretty damn funny it's like an April fools joke on steroids, and my boss got a kick out of it too , but apparently we're the only ones who saw the humor in it History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

b) many war supporters would object, because that would make the war seem costly Quote I think you hit the nail on the head with this on Bill, if it was left at half mast for the soldiers dying it would turn into a political statement as opposed to what it is now, a way to show respect in a time of mourning. I think it would be people on both sides that would turn it political though. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I'm only 45 minutes away from the Colorado tunnel and I have made the road trip to eloy a handfull of times this year for the extra size and coachin I can get down there. I also like the way the AZ tunnel flies better too. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Considering you play an active role in war I wouldn't be surprised if you have further misunderstandings about how wars work. Quote I'd love to be able to step into your reality for a day and see how everything works. I failed to realize that taking part in something made you less knowledgeable. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Exactly you have spent 8 years in army, what would you know? The answer is not much after that much indoctrination. Quote Once again you sit there making claims about how brainwashed I am when you have never met me. You use the simple explanation that I believe something that contradicts your "truths" to perpetuate your disdain for those of us in the military. I apologize once again if you are offended that people have to die in order for me to come home in one piece, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that I will never intentionally send a man to his grave if he is an innocent. That last statement you made about the number of combatant vs non-combatant casualties is utter BS. There may be a shred of truth to that if you count the number of deaths caused by suicide bombers intentionally attacking women and children in market places. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower