peregrinerose

Yup, but I think Paj and I rather effectively hijacked it. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

My humble opinion of Philly is that it is a freaking pit. Lived in N. Philly for 4 years. (sorry PhillyKev if you are reading). You're right about the cheesesteak thing though. I'm a country girl, don't do that whole city thing too well. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

My kids are going to be massively screwed up then. My husband and I are both firm believers in the 'pile' system of organization. We just can't find anything in each other's piles, so those piles become blobs, pretty much our office looks like a paper factory. And with 2 dogs, 3 cats, rabbit, and guinea pig, the house is always a bit cluttery and with the occasional hairy tumbleweed drifting around. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I agree completely. I don't think I've ever fired off a pissy post or email, really do try to understand the other guy, even if they are misguided... About your deal... hmmmmmmm, that's a tough one. Okay, I suppose I can live with that. If you ever are in PA for anything, let me know, you're one of the more interesting econversation people I've run in to. And my husband and I are irrisitably cool to hang out with anyway. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

LOL!! Oh, wait, speakers corner. you're supposed to piss me off not make me laugh Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I agree with you, the only question is it 'evil' as formed by Satan, or 'evil people' as produced as by product of other things. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

It's okay Paj, even though you think I'm not making it to heaven due to my lack of ability to accept God in the same form that you do (or Christianity as a whole does), I still like you I'll just keep muddling along as best I can. When we both bite the dust, you'll have to do a fly by and wave hello

Nope. You could be a murderer from having a seriously screwed up life as a child (and these definitely exist). This would not be a biochemical illness, but an envoronmental modification to behavior. I think the only point of contention is whether or not these people were intentionally created as evil and planted by satan or if they are the product of genetics, under the 'shit happens.' category. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Cute dog! Cattle dog? I have a stumpy tail cattle dog. Stubborn as hell and dumb as a brick, but extremely affectionate. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Hey, this is speakers corner, we're supposed to kill each other verbally, not laugh!! If Bonfire posts can be relocated here when they get debatey, maybe it will work the other way around too?? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Is it true evil or mental illness? Or in some cases the influence of drugs? Besides the holocost, Hitler was a nut case, obsessive compulsive, etc. Looking at Manson, I also see a nut case, something had to be biochemically off kilter with that man. I think we are acknowledging the same thing, you feel that it is the work of Satan, I call it more biology/physiology/genetics/drugs/environment or a combo of these. Who know, maybe we are both right and satan causes a little turbulance in the gene pool for shits and giggles. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

If she smokes, make her stop, worked beautifully on stopping my husband's snoring. If she is overweight, encourage her to lose some, worked wonders for me. Otherwise, the strips, or a well placed elbow, or separate rooms, or turn on some kind of ambient noise like a fan or air conditioner or something to help you be accustomed to some degree of noise in the room, or buy a dog that snores louder so it makes your wife's snoring seem even quieter. Or like the other person said, give her an exceptionally good romp and you'll both sleep like rocks. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Sure, I spent time bitter and depressed. But over time built up an amazing support network of friends, did counselling, my husband has completely turned my life around and his family treats me as their own. All these people are my family. I'm not missing anything at all, and am actually one of the more fortunate people in the world as I chose my 'family'. The one that I was saddled with at birth didn't pan out too well, but there are people who love me just as much and I know that if I truly was in need, they would be there. Now, I don't really have any anger. I acknowledge that my past molded who I am at present to some degree, but it no longer controls my emotions or my choices, or my future, for then I have let abuse win. I'm a stubborn critter (haven't you noticed that yet ) so won't let that happen. I love life, and live every day to its fullest and do my best to positively impact those around me. I mess up occasionally, but who doesn't? I know how giving a person I am and how much I do for others, even strangers, so can't imagine how I could be an evil person or have a black soul just because I can not accept Christianity. I give so much love and attention to others, anyone who knows me will tell you there's nothing negative about me. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I guess I just can't fathom that anyone is truly born evil. Everyone has some good. I've done some work with prisoners (gotta love eye care, adventures every day!), and at their root are often good people who screwed up. I believe that a lot of evil people are products of their environment (9/11 hijackers) or mental illness (McVeigh, etc) Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I never met Adria either, but have been reading these posts. Her smile was truly amazing, even in the pictures she looked like a joy to know and a positive happy woman. Many of us will learn from this tragedy, but that does not make the loss of a bright star any less for her friends and family. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I think that my parents probably nudged us to Catholicism about the right amount, encouraging it but not beating us over the head with it. As a kid the concept didn't repulse me, I didn't feel forced into it, I just accepted as what I was taught as truth. What my parents dished out wasn't bad as far as religion went, it was their treatment of my brother and I. I had a perpetual hand print on my face, was choked, beaten. If every bruise on my body from before I left showed up at once, probably not one inch was left alone. I was molested and degrated every day, I was locked in my bedroom with nothing but school books.. no heat, no a/c, really sucked in the winter. I was never bitter about religion growing up, even until I was in my early 20s. I was bitter about my childhood (pretty much over that now, only remaining scar is that I have a mental meltdown if anyone raises a hand to me in anger, even if it doesn't hurt at all). Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Paganism is not the same thing as being a heathen! Paganism isn't even a religion, during the Middle Ages when Christianity was sweeping through Europe, the term pagan meant anything non-Christian, all such beliefs were muddled in together. Even now, there is no one central pagan belief, other than the spirit of nature. I think that everyone who considers themselves pagan has a slightly different definition of the word. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Honestly I can't say that I gave up on trying to change my heart as a result of the happy horse shit my mother put me through. I tried for a good 10 years after leaving, doing everything outwardly Christian hoping that it would sooner or later convince my spirit to honestly believe in that. Kinda like the fake smile relaxes you on those first few skydives, working from the outside in. Just didn't work that way with me. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. I literally can not believe in Christianity. I tried with all my heart to force myself into it, on the surface I looked like a model Christian, I was at church every Sunday, vespers every Saturday, went to college Chrisitan youth rallies, taught 4th-5th grade Bible youth groups for 4 years, was a part of Bible studies for 16+ years. I did my best to believe in my heart what I was learning and teaching and living every day, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't. It made me frustrated and my failing to do so made be beat myself up. When I finally did realize that this was a senseless cycle truly destroying who I am, this pretending and trying to do something so completely contradictory to who I am as a person, it was time to start being honest with myself. It was the harder road to take. I was evicted from my extended family (ran away at 17 from a physically/emotionally/sexually abusive home, but still kept in touch with the rest of my huge family) because I was no longer Catholic. I did know that this would be a consequence of being honest with my heart, but I also couldn't keep living a lie. Most of my friends were Christian, they had a hard time dealing with it too. Some are still friends, others distanced themselves. It has put a huge canyon between my brother and I as his goal in life is to re-Catholicize me and he is incapable of accepting me as I am. The best analogy I can come up with is if someone told me to love a man other than my husband, to turn my back on this amazing love in exchange for another, and that if I could do so honestly and not pretendly, it would save my life. I couldn't do it. I could want to save my life intellectually, but it is impossible to force someone to feel that which they do not. No one could force you to feel any less secure in your beliefs or make your honest love for God any less, it isn't possible. Belief, feelings, emotions are not logical and can not be rationalized with. I also don't believe that I have a sinful nature. I am far from perfect, but every day I try to be a better person than the day before, try to learn something new, and to be a good role model for those around me. I don't think that you and I differ in our degree of spirituality, our hearts just have differing ways of expressing it and interpreting it. Yours more biblically based, me more nature based. I don't think that makes either of us more/less a sinner or having a sinful nature than the other, we both just do our best to be true to ourselves and our own belief systems. I know you respect everyone's opinion on here

So there are people on the planet that God intentionally chose to not place a sense of himself in their heart? That doesn't make much sense, for then that person is completely doomed to never believe, no never truly be a good person, etc. So God basically would have created this person knowing full well that eternal damnation would be the reward. I don't really follow that (maybe I'm misunderstanding??) So because I can not believe in Christianity, I have therefore chosen to return to my old and sinful nature? So the fact that I do tons of volunteer work, active with volunteer groups, and make a very positive difference in the worlds of those around me are solely the result of my selfish and prideful manner? Any God that would do this will never have my support. That is just cruel. Creating people to be killed or to be killers, intentionally creating people who are 'evil natured' to 'act in the way natureal to them.' Which goes back to the free will thing and negates it... either you are created to be one way or you chose to be one way, it can not be both. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I have to disagree completely on this one. If God can reach people without other people, then the crusades, inquisition, destruction of a majority of the 'heathen' American Indian population, etc. would never have occurred, for the whole world would be bubbling along in blissful Christianity without the sword to back it up. In older times Christianity was forced by the sword, you either believe and practice Christianity or you die. Not much of a choice, really. After generations of this enforced belief, sooner or later the faith grows on you and becomes habit. Missionaries in wherever typically go with food, health care, etc. to basically buy Christianity. It is taught as fact in missionary schools to children. Not by violence but force fed regardless. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Extremely well written, Zen. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I was raised Catholic, in a very strictly Catholic family. But I also read a lot of history, and historically speaking, the Vatican has pulled a lot of truly barbaric shit. The torture, death, and intolerance taught by the church disgusts me. Partly from the historical context of crusades, etc, partly more recently. Catholic churches refuse communion to those wearing the rainbows of gay pride, or politicians who support abortion. That judgementality is non Christian, not what Christ taught at all. A recent publication from the Vatican basically stated that women need to engage in more 'womanly' roles in life, more family/nurturing based rather than necessarily filling the same roles as men. I'm sorry I don't still have the link on this one, but it was only a couple weeks ago. To belong to a church that actively teaches such intolerance and historically has gone to whatever lengths to ensure it's procreation tacetly gives approval to those atrocities. I chose long ago never to approve, even in silence, of this kind of thing and can't really understand why anyone would. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Eyes/eye contact and smile is a close second. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

No, but that is why I am running for supreme dictator of reproductive rights. That way the existing stupid people die out without contaminating our pool with their genes. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda