pirana

It does seem a bit twisted. People with guns are killing kids, therefore we'd all be safer if there were more guns instead of less. As is mentioned elsewhere, there is a lot more to it than availability of guns. That being said, access to them is way too easy. If I were King, you'd have to have a squeaky clean record to own a gun. Any violent crimes, a single conviction for battery, assault, domestic abuse, even a DWI - no gun for you, EVER! Anything more than a petty midemeanor, no way you have the integrity to own a gun. Hard core, but there is so much at stake. In my world, you would have to prove yourself to be not just of sound mind, but of exemplary judgement before you get the chance to own a firearm. So I guess it just goes to how you define "responsible law-abiding citizen." Getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk meets my definition of irresponsible. Same for fighting, beating your wife or kids (or both), or damn near any other crime. Start there. Won't happen though, at least not for a long time. The NRA is so paranoid at giving any ground at all that they and their lapdog politicians won't even let a ban on assault rifles pass. They are pathetic in their dogmatic approach to keeping access to guns as wide open as they can. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Very good point. A basic human need - stimulation (or variety, or the spice of life). Kids need it too, and if in our busy lives we attempt to meet that need via material wants, trouble will follow. That stimulation/variety/spice needs to be emotional/mental; not material. If you got the cash and can afford all the toys, that's cool. But no amount of that can compensate for emotional stimualtion and growth. Ever notice how many really smart people commit suicide? I've known a couple, and they were very smart, but emotionally stunted, and very lonely. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

But the point I was making, or had made, is that bad adolescent behavior rarely begins in adolescence. Core personality traits are mostly formed by age 6 or 7. It's the dilemma of parenthood, especially for young parents. The little toddler's personality cement is firming up very quickly. We barely know what we're doing until it's done, then it's very difficult to undo. When I see a kid acting out unhealthy behaviors, I ALWAYS look to the parents. Then when I meet them, it's ALMOST always confirmed. Peer groups largely determine how a teenager behaves, but what peer groups they are likely to land in is largely based on modeling their parent and what they learned before the age of 7. So, maybe not all specific behaviors can be directly tied to the parents, but the kinds of choices a kid makes (such as peer group selection) do lead back to parent (or other caregiver) influence. As far as no-matter-what-the-parents-do; if that is somehow implying that there is something they can do now for a misbehaving teen - HA! Too late. The dozen or more years of development that led to some teens anti-social or otherwise unhealthy behavior just ain't gonna get undone because somebody decides to step in and point out their errant behavior. It's similar to treating addiction. That behavior is engrained in personality traits and beliefs and principles that can only be dislodged by a truely traumatic event or years of therapy (which has what, maybe a 50-50 chance of being effective?). As an aside, there is a reason Fulghums book was such a hit. It is very simple, very true, and recognized as such. A very few fundamentals that make the rest of life a piece of toast. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Actually, I think the proper term to use there would have been arithmetic, . . . or would that be arithmetics? A rith mu tiks - noun, a group of non-harmonious randomly flinching people. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Beat me to the same point. Well said. I was chatting with someone else about this. Their tactic - treat it like the crime it is and make sure everyone involved clearly understands that's how you see it and that you will be relentless in having it treated that way. Sure to get their attention. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Absolutely. My top three: Easy access to guns. Neglectful and/or abusive parents. Complacent school staff that allow bullying. To another poster's point about needing better conflict resolution skills. That is good, but dig deeper (you need to ask why until there are no answers). What is so conflicting? What is it they need to resolve and why? They have a problem with people not like them, . . . why? Need to dominate others, . . . why? Why, why, why? No politically correct or pat bullshit answers. Make people come clean and get to the bottom line. Solutions: Make it much tougher to get/own guns. I'm not anti-gun, but I am anti-putting-guns-in-the-hands-of-those-obviously-unfit-to-own-them. Intervention at a very early age, as soon as anti-social behavior surfaces. If somebody doesn't step in by age 6, then at a minimum the child is probably looking at a lifetime of therapy and/or social dysfunction, at a maximum a very tough life. Help for the kids, and help and/or punishment for the parents. The natural give and take that is part of growing up does not include bullying. That is apologetic crap doled out by ignorant and/or out of date and/or lazy administrators, as well as the parents of bullies. The horseplay and group dynamics that establish the informal pecking order do not require the kind of violent behavior or mental intimidation known as bullying. The use of any object (including thrown food), unprovoked attacks, blows that cause injuries, destruction of property, and so on and so forth; need to be treated as the crimes they are. Report them immediately, and if no action is taken, go over their heads. Be relentless. I know, the policing of parenting is a very tough cookie. But if we are going to allow assholes to procreate, then somebody is going to have to watch over their shoulders. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Sherri actually met him (Slick Willie) when she was a flight attendant. Just a quick pass (nudge nudge, wink wink, no what I mean), a handshake and a hello. The crew did get a tour of Air Force One. Some neat trinkets too, among them a box of M&M's with the presidential seal. Presidential M&M's - I still haven't figured that one out. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

What he does? You mean telling other people what they said? I can hear Rummy, Cheney and Bush now. "Damn it Bob, would you quit quoting us? You're making us look bad and "confusing" people I've often wondered the same thing. Why would anyone who runs a nursing home, insurance company, bank, and so on and so forth; ever even consider answering the door for a 60 Minutes camera crew? Must be their ego - they think they can pull it off. Fat chance, a little careful editing and everybody is a criminal. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Nope. I mean almost always . . . Occasionally it is entirely proper to speak in an absolute. An example would be a temperature of zero degrees Kelvin. Which is of course absolutely unattainable. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Is there tutoring available? Get some if it is. He really should get at minimum arithmetic (+,-,X,/) and some basic algebra & geometry down pat. Sure, depends on what he's got for ideas for the future, but those are very fundamental to all but the we-don't-need-no-stinking-degrees crowd. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

At first, top notch grades with very little effort. Then I discovered cars, women & partying. From that point on settled for balance between average grades and real life experience. Served me well, though I sometimes think those 6 years off between high school and college could have been a bit more productive. But, a guys gotta eat in the off-season too ya know. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2512737 Sometimes summary justice is a good thing. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Screw the "official" strategy. The reason we are there is to prop up a US friendly government.* Not turning out at all like they hoped. But Bush's cronies are sure getting rich for the effort. Anybody know what the Halliburton, Bechtel, et al contracts are worth now? Gotta be in the tens of billions. *Like we did in Iran with the Shah. That worked well for what, about 20 years? Screwed it up in the long run though. They got caught completely off-guard by the fundamentalist revolution, totally misread the lay of the land. Course it isn't surprising a bunch of Ivy League stuffed shirts didn't see the writing on the desert floor. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

You are off by one full order of magnitude. Odds of a person dying a violent death at school sometime before their graduation are 1 in 107,000. So, in a school with a graduating class of 200, it will happen once every 535 years. Not much consolation though. We could put it on their gravestone though "Sorry, you were just very unlucky" Not bad compared to other activities. But appaling when you consider IT IS SCHOOL!!!!!!! I hear peole saying "It's safer than riding in a car." No fucking shit, and I shoud hope so! BTW, that 1 in 107,000 is for all schools. Urban schools are far more dangerous at 1 in 12,000. Isn't the skydiving fatality rate in this country about 1 in 100K? (Based on about 20 to 30 deaths and about 3 million skydives). Not that the 2 compare, just a coincidence. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

You are correct about the parent hunch though. There is a near 100% correlation between kids that do this kind of stuff and having neglectful or abusive parents. The two are just as damaging. Unfortunate way in this world as that in most families both parents work. (Gotta meet material needs ya know). Because personality traits are largely embedded by age 6, the damage is often done before it is even recognized. It's worth considering what is REALLY needed before locking into the idea that both parents MUST work instead of one staying home until the kids go off to elementary school. Not that 2 working parents can not do the job, it's just nice to have that much control over what the kids are exposed to and how they are treated 24X7 during those early critical formative years. Regardless of the shooters age, ethnicity, religion, etc; you can be sure of one thing: There will be evidence of early childhood abuse and/or neglect. They're back, they're dressed in black, and they are not gonna take it any more. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

(Just hitting reply cuz it's the last post). I heard on the radio the Amish have now gotten in on the action, putting themselves on the scoreboard with a school shooting in PA. They're back, dressed in black, and not gonna take it anymore. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Not a bad summation really. I'd stop short of calling him stupid though. He manipulated his way into power, is funneling shitloads of government contracts to his friends (who also happen to be his VP and closest advisors), and got re-elected by building the strangest coalition in history (the well off on one hand and the trailer park masses on the other - which is so strange because they are the ones getting really fucked over). The fact that he has lied about so muych, and has shown incredible incompetence just rolls off of him. It's amazing. He is a master propogandist (knows how to effectively appeal to emotions without the facts getting in the way). " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Repeat after me: "You are all individuals." " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

He not only does not polish his image, he intentionally tries to be a palooka. He puts on like a cowboy and tries very hard to distance himself from his Yankee heritage; all as a matter of political positioning. He's a master of propoganda. His efforts are more towards lining the pockets of his friends and family. The coporatacracy has owned governement since WWII, but never have they been so open and unashamed of their behavior. They take care of business alright, their own businesses that is. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

From the money saved on counseling, lawsuits, and all the other off-the-wall cover-their-ass type positions they now have. I was looking at my kids Handbook and the number of non-teaching specialty counselors and advice givers is ridiculous. I went to a school of many hundreds per gradualting class. We had 1 pricipal and 1 vice or assistant principal. I think the Middle School and High School in our district have one for each graduating class. Also, their "couselor" ratio is about 4 times as high as ours was. Maybe we should hire a consultant to commission a study to research the feasibility of getting a grant to find out why kids need so much counseling these days. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I don't think the analogy is at all valid. Skydiving deaths are for the most part self-induced during skydiving. If kids died from from making mistakes in algebra, or if someone showed up at a DZ and started picking off skydivers in freefall with a rifle - then there might be an analogy. The other problem I have with the stats are that they only count fatalities. As if being shot and surviving is OK. Or getting raped doesn't count. Or getting stabbed, or even just getting the shit stomped out of you doesn't matter. Don't know what those stats are, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that violent crimes in schools have risen dramatically. Another one late last week right here in WI. Principal murdered. But you know, one principal is just an anecdote and a statistical anomaly. Nothing to worry about if you weren't him. I'll do a little quick search on violence in schools and see what comes up. I definitely remember a time when stuff like this was virtually non-existent. They all made the news, just like today, and I don't remember hearing about them several times per year. BTW, what was my fallacy? And what is wrong with an emotional appeal? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Thank goodness the web-Nazi's have that one blocked here at work. Otherwise I'd have to go off on some rant or another. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

You reckon? Pretty suspicious bunch if you ask me. Ernest Borgnine?! Harpo Marx!? Now I'm convinced. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

and fires, and to get out and in for other reasons I thought that's what windows were for? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

stop sending kids to school Stop everything. Massive chillers to bring the Earth to absolute zero. All the badness will go away. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley