JoeWeber

Please tell me you had dash cam.

Pity you can not see how that point is as specious as your AR-15 arguments. Most folks need a giant truck like they need a sharp stick in the ear. Yes, many head off for a job site daily, but far too many head of for shopping and grade school kid deliveries, too. And, please, please, do remind us that it's an individual right to feel safer doing daily errands in a gas guzzling giant hog of a truck that puts sensible folks at risk in a crash and not get that irony either.

We strive mightily, and spend buckets of money, to show that skydiving is a safe and accessible activity for most people. It's not a perfectly safe activity which is widely known and accepted by the general population. In fact, that's a good thing: we're the "big" one the bucket list usually and that makes it an even better experience for most new jumpers. All good. Now, you might argue that DZO's and experienced jumpers should know that hell can hit any day and you'd be right. But to argue that unaware spectators should shoulder responsibility for seeing a hook turn fatality when they have zero notion of what that even may be is being specious in the extreme. DZO's can ban it and greatly lower the chance of one happening, jumpers can simply not do them intentionally, allowed or not, and greatly lower their chance of being injured or killed doing one. But unless you are arguing that when reservations are taken for first jumps the prospective skydiver should be advised to tell their friends and family what a hook turn fatality is and how seeing one can traumatize them for life you really have no basis for your proposition.

You're right, the history of skydiving has many situations where money from outside the DZ, from some interesting sources I'm informed, made things happen. Trust fund kids and other stuff comes to mind. In truth, I'm not a one trick pony with the DZ. I've had a fair sized Jump Aircraft Leasing company, a Turbine Engine Leasing company, an Aircraft trading gig, and my real estate stuff etc. Many times that coin went into the DZ to satisfy my most important desires. No regrets, far from it. But the bottom line is because of that experience I'm familiar with the real numbers.

Marcel, Please try to understand that the idea of banning jumpers over 60 isn't resonating with me. Nor do I want to ban all risk. I banned swooping at my DZ for the reward of having a safer environment overall. It has been a success. It has also had the advantage of our seeing fewer rule breakers wander by. If you or anyone else wants to open a swoop only DZ, have at it and good luck. I mean that. So here's a little pearl to consider when you are getting ready to open and are pricing your product: low passes with swoopers costs the DZ money. If the pilot safely configures the aircraft to level flight and slows down as they should one or two swoopers (who expect cheap jumps because they are getting out low) actually adds 2-3 minutes to the climb to full altitude of even fast turbine aircraft. That's two or three minutes that cost +/-$20 a minute. Do that 10 times a day and that aircraft will fly two less profitable loads that day. Worse, if it's loads to 5K all day every one of those landings is a cycle or part of a cycle deducted from the life of many of the life limited parts that the aircraft has, those are like $20 per landing. So thank your stars that too many DZO's who like swoopers also suck at math. Joe

No, I don't want turns above 180 degrees banned from all USPA DZ's. I think they are a bad idea at most DZ's for reasons previously stated. Like others, I came around to restricting turns to no more than 180 mostly because for most people that's fun enough and, regardless of the memes, seemed to not create excess casualties. And, yes, that's in the vetted, "HP" landing area that is separated from the main landing area by a runway. In our main landing area the limit is 90 degrees and traffic patterns are expected on both sides. Understand I didn't just come out of the gate trying to destroy CP before it could get off the ground. We were early adopters. Over two decades ago we built what at the time was the largest swoop pond on the west coast: 200' X 60' X 4' deep. Truly a thing of beauty, it was. There is even nice triptych of me chowing on a Stiletto somewhere. We were all about it. The idea was to make CP safer; that swoopers would do the big turn in such a way that if they blew it they would at least hit water. Swoopers needed to show real skill before doing a coast to coast. But they were selfish and turned me into a cop. The most frustrating were the ones who practiced along side the pond so if they chowed they wouldn't get their rig and Cypres wet. And chow they did. Transient jumpers simply flouted the rules and moved on. Those are my rules and that's my history. Others can do as they choose based on their tolerance and situation. And it should not be a surprise that I think USPA shouldn't be overtly supportive of the practice.

Correction, Trump has not been indicted, he was indicated: "These Thugs and Radical Left Monsters have just INDICATED the 45th President of the United States of America, and the leading Republican Candidate, by far, for the 2024 Nomination for President. THIS IS AN ATTACK ON OUR COUNTRY THE LIKES OF WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE. IT IS LIKEWISE A CONTINUING ATTACK ON OUR ONCE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS. THE USA IS NOW A THIRD WORLD NATION, A NATION IN SERIOUS DECLINE. SO SAD!"

Not for me they won't, I'm stoked. Today I went around singing "Payday Blues" from the Dan Hicks, Last Train to Hicksville album. Ya' buddy!

Dude you are not who I thought you were. Have you ever read any of the following? Maybe where I fail you is in trying to explain why I think as I do before stating my position. No matter, take 4. No and no. But I am to where I don't think we should be offering the usual thoughts and prayers when they inevitably occur nor that USPA should be so supportive of the practice. In the old days we had excellent low pullers who had amazing depth perception and incredible hand eye coordination. They are still with us while those who only thought they did are gone. Another nasty feature of hook turn fatalities is that, unlike a simple bounce that most often happens away from any spectators, hook turn fatalities too often happen traumatically and quite violently in front of innocent bystanders. And they're messy, PTSD causing events, too. In that sense, unlike a standard Freefall fatality from the usual, expected, and known causes hook turn fatalities are somewhat more of a selfish, self centered event. So, generally speaking, I think they're best learned away from regular DZ's under the heavy guidance of skilled professionals who do not accept as a candidate every hopeful. I hope that helps. Or this: Take a deep breath, Chuck; my logic says nothing of the sort. I get it that CP is a big deal for you personally. I get it that the top people are amazing and the competitions can be awe inspiring. Great. I also think that allowing hook turns and encouraging pushing the envelope in a DZ environment is a bad choice. Consequently, like many operations we have limited the amount of turns allowed and put strict rules in place. As you so rightly observed hooking it is a damn dangerous thing to do. Your personal, and USPA's apparently, acceptable rate of attrition against some perceived rate of return is what it is. I personally believe the injuries and fatalities from swooping aren't worth it: simple 180's in a controlled location, and then with permission, are fun enough. Or this: Thank you. I've seen a few like that, sometimes with out any control input after the low turn. I've often wondered if it wasn't an error at the level of the brain, sort of like when a highly experienced aircraft pilot land gear up. Often they'll tell you afterwards that they saw all three lights in the green. I don't doubt they did, in their minds. Our lives are complicated and if we did need to relearn everything every day we'd get nowhere. So instead, maybe we see or feel what has always been and continue on into the ground. Or this: There we have a point of disagreement. Skydiving is a sport based on a business model, not random acts by individuals unrelated to a whole. To be frank, laying off a fatality, or worse, to "personal responsibility" is a way for DZO's and USPA to avoid a hard truth. I say the responsible party was who ever was absolutely in charge of the event, probably the DZO. (you know, you) Or this: The bottom line is we can do a lot to mitigate risk which translates to fewer injuries and fatalities. In my opinion that is Job 1 for both DZO's and USPA. Just throwing up your hands and accepting whatever outcome happens is not a part of my religion. My issue with USPA is not that I want Swooping banned or yada, yada, yada. I will restate my position: the injuries and fatalities we get from swooping are a worse thing because too many are in front of innocent people not people who foolishly believe they are taking their own risks. Consequently, I think the practice isn't a good fit at a public DZ. USPA, and Chuck, think it's a fit because they want more swoopers and DZ's, where the carnage starts, fill the pipeline to the top competitions where it is all art and beauty.

More importantly, he is pointless.

No, they're fully opposed by all rational people. The problem is that they are fully supported by everyone who thinks we can do nothing. What we need is a movement like when we marched against the Vietnam War. But you would need to be there, some Brent-likes would need to be there, it would need to be seen as a statement of our society such that our minority party rulers might realize it's now a different world. KLM, Kids Lives Matter, if you will. That's surely worth marching for.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, are you really that disconnected? It happens because we glorify guns and have too many, and too many of the worst kinds, of them flooding society. We do not need armed camps for schools. We need serious gun regulations, some guns confiscated, huge taxes on gun sales, red flag laws that count, and major campaigns to show people what bullets actually do to kids bodies. We do not need idiot, freaked out armed guards in schools as a first effort.

The Manhatten Grand Jury has voted to indict Trump. Another first for Republicans.

Yes, well, er, um, the thing is, being serious requires seriously thinking about the suggestion. As long as we're being ridiculous instead, my suggestion is that before we raise the nations kids in armed military camps we first deploy the National Guard, fully supported by every Red State Governor of course, in every gun shop and shooting range. Not happening, right?

And let us not forget this moment when a US President submitted, with a hand offered palm up, to Russian President and KGB operative.

Most jump insurance doesn't allow passengers. Also, because it has value to the patient it might also be seen as a commercial operation outside of jump op's.

Nothing was found at the scene of your psyche? Hmm...

He can not. He can only rationalize his own addiction to AR style weapons. Without doubt that is founded in his decades of honorable service in the US Army where the magic of the 5.56 cartridge was drilled into his psyche.

We get it, but sadly such a bill would be DOA. The mantra is that responsible gun owners are not the problem.

So if someone is being irresponsible do we give them a time out in the corner? Do we take their guns? Is that not a Ban but a Nab?

I'll put our morons up against yours any day, thank you. But the thing that is too delicate for some sensibilities to discuss is what motivates our respective morons. For Republicans too often that is their Christian beliefs. Just reality.

Keith, It's not those of us who see reality who are offering thoughts and prayers after every kid is killed, Christian or not. Like it or not there is real, legitimate bitterness amongst those who wish gun control was a reality in America. Like it or not Evangelicals aren't helping anymore than the Second Amendment nuts are. Just to underline the difference that does not exist, you wouldn't fault us too much for being snarky if Wayne LaPierre's kids were the latest school shooting victims. Sorry Brother but what will heal this nation is the end of Christians getting a pass. Joe

You got that right. I've been waiting to take on a 20 year Army Ranger just to show him how a real man pisses his pants.

You're right. Thanks.

You block him, I engage him. You called him a Troll, I called him out of his depth. He has a chance.