quack

Those are some great shots! Mine would be the one I use in my avatar. It's my 1000th, taken from the ground. The other is of my old team, taken in Eloy by Mike McGowan. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

Take the interstate and go to Santa Fe. You won't regret it! But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

I'm D-589, never jumped a round. Oh, right, but I'm with CSPA in Canada...

Puretracks is OK for some things, but the digital rights management adds a twist to burning / copying to devices. Also, I don't know how well it works for US subscribers. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

To play Devil's advocate on this, it could also be that the reason there is nothing besides money in the 'pro' category is because others' views on the issues are polar opposites of the 'con' supporters, and nothing will change their minds. That's OK, as long as the other point of view is given it's due (which the OP has done), but then there can be much apathy from the 'pros' who really don't see a problem. Many issues like this do not have black and white answers. It is very easy to find a lot of reasons against something if a person is against it based on their own principles, which is fine. Looking at both sides can be an eye-opener as well. There are many who support factory farming, so long as reasonable conditions are being met. Sure, the reason people are in business is to make money. I'm focusing on the animal cruelty issue. The producers care about their product. It pays to have a healthy product at the auction, and health includes day-to-day living. While there are producers who will jam animals in substandard conditions, most are not like that. But like anything, it only takes one video to taint the entire industry, similar to a handful of LA Policemen making a name for themselves in 1992. OK, maybe a bad example, but it's what sprang to mind. With respect to living conditions, the animals have to be given the minimum accepted space to live in, and the requirements are not arbitrary. Much thought and research has been put into these conditions. I don't know if anyone looked at Temple Grandin's work that I posted earlier, but here[url] it is again. To use a human comparison, it's akin to military barracks or university dorm rooms. They have about one square foot more than the accepted standards. No one but the student usually complains about these living conditions, but then, they are humans, not food animals, and have fewer advocates. The argument for animal rights is not about equating them to human rights. It's about what is decent and respectful to an animal that is going to end up as a meal. Those that accept these farming practices do so because they look at the food animals as just that: food animals. I don't believe there is an intention to be cruel, similar to many hunters who shoot to kill, not to maim. There is a respect for the animal and not a dismissive attitude toward their welfare. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

OK, from my post I can see that it could be misinterpreted. There are many synthetic substances in use in organic production, some of which are used to control the undesirable critters, as pesticides. No conventional synthetics are allowed. This is from the National Organic Program of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA): Regulatory Text In: 205.601 "Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production", there is an extensive list of synthetics. Now, mind that there are strict controls on their use and all, but the fact is, organic production makes use of more than just natural compounds. I still stand by the fact that many of the so-called natural or non-synthetic substances are just as harmful to human health. But that is another thread for another day. Like you say, back to the thread's intent. I applaud your conviction with your diet and arguments, even if I'm not convinced myself. K But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

I wasn't referring to the practices of companies like Tyson and people buying organic to avoid helping them out financially. I meant the perceived human health benefits of eating organic being the driver for that choice. Production practices such as no pesticide use, which were mentioned in an earlier post, are one of them. However, organic production does allow some synthetic pesticide use. As well, some non-synthetic pesticides are just as toxic as their synthetic counterparts, and in some cases more toxic to humans. I believe that many people mistakenly think that organic means 100% natural, which it doesn't. The point is that choosing organic doesn't mean completely avoiding potential hazards in the food. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

I agree that people should pay more attention to what's in their food and do the research. However there is a huge market share now in what started out as a niche market, with respect to organic products. People are willing to pay three times the price just for that label, thinking it to be healthier because of certain production practices. For example, organically produced animals are still given antibiotics when they are sick. There's not a producer out there who would let the animal suffer, and this is accepted practice. The drugs just are not used as growth promoters. Genetically modified (GM) foods are everywhere as well. People would be very surprised to learn how much GM they come in contact with. In cheese-making, for instance, most of the rennet used is produced by a GM organism. And that is all before a person goes home to cook their food. Meat charred on a bbq can contain all kinds of carcinogenic compounds, just because of the high heat. The bbq doesn't care if it is organic or conventionally produced meat. So what am I saying? Just that a balance has to be struck between worrying too much about the content of the food product and as you say blindly trusting. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

That's certainly possible, with antibiotic resistance (AR). The animal producers claim that since non-(human) medical antibiotics are used as growth promoters there isn't cross-resistance. But AR through cross-resistance has been observed. I personally don't like the sub-therapeutic use of antibiotics because of the possibility of AR. This feeling is based on the fact that drug companies aren't developing new drugs - it's just too expensive - and human health will suffer in the end, when microbes become resistant from all their reasons. I know, I'm anthropomorphising microbes now... As for meat containing the drugs, that's why there are withdrawal times at the farm level. If an animal contains antibiotics prior to shipping time, they aren't shipped. Meat should not contain the drugs, and if it is present, certainly not at high levels. The concern is for those persons who may be highly sensitive / allergic to the antibiotics. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

I do find it interesting that there can be such heated debate on this topic of humane slaughter when you consider the following: Inmates on death row opting for lethal injection have their skin wiped with antiseptic prior to the needle being inserted. Now there's a disconnect. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

There's no evidence either way that organic foods result in a healthier outcome for the eater. Or I should say, there is evidence that supports both sides, like anything in this world. Also, the potential increased risks from pathogenic bacteria on organic produce, for example, is a concern. Because of the manner in which they are fertilized and packaged, they may be of bigger concern for some high risk consumers. (My comments aren't merely a result of the spinach recalls of this past month - I just have an interest.) Organic animal production may follow the standards set out by the certifying body, but in the end the slaughter practices are very similar (and typically performed in the same faciity as conventional raised animals). Temple Grandin's website has lots of info and should be checked out: http://www.grandin.com/ You're probably right though. Less artificial chemicals in the body should intuitively mean increased health. But where could a person live to not be exposed to the thousands of chemicals in their immediate environment? But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

What species (of "spoliage bacteria")are you talking about here? Mainly Pseudomonas, Moraxella, and Acinetobacter, if it's aerobically stored meats. And yes, LPS is highly toxic. But the point I'm making here is that meat would have to be so rancid for the amount of LPS to be significant no one would eat it anyway. The original question was regarding fresh poultry. If LPS was a concern we'd all be getting sick from eating meat (Yes, I know you were commenting on if the bacterial numbers were high enough). But anyway, back to what I'm supposed to be doing... (edited to add: I'm not good at markup - can't do italics) But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

Unless you slaughtered the bird yourself in the backyard, there's no reason to wash it. Just handle it properly and cook it to the proper temperature. Cooking to 72 C (160 F) for poultry (turkeys should be 80 C or 180 F for those thinking of burning a bird for Thanksgiving) is recommended to avoid the trots, but the main reason for not eating well-cooked spoiled poultry is that the bacterial counts are much greater than the fresh product. So if the 72 C temperature is not reached, there is a greater chance of an infectious dose of bacterial cells remaining on the food. And cross-contamination becomes a greater concern. That, plus it is kind of gross to cook and eat spoiled food. yeah, you're probably right. You probably usually don't need to wash off a fresh chicken from the supermarket, as long as you cook it properly. But again, I'm saying that if food is spoiled, it means it has a truckload of bacteria laying on it. Which will make you sick even if you successfully cook it until all the bacteria are dead. Sure, diseases like Guillain-Barre syndrome are associated with LPS. But any spoiled meat is more the result of spoilage bacteria, which compete with the pathogens. So, unless the pathogen counts were astronomical, cooking (or irradiating for that matter) would tend to keep it safe. Not palatable, though, and I sure wouldn't recommend eating any spoiled food. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

I blame Newton. Well, through Jorge Cham's take on Newton's three laws. And at least it keeps me laughing while worrying about why I'm on here and not writing my thesis.

Unless you slaughtered the bird yourself in the backyard, there's no reason to wash it. Just handle it properly and cook it to the proper temperature. Cooking to 72 C (160 F) for poultry (turkeys should be 80 C or 180 F for those thinking of burning a bird for Thanksgiving) is recommended to avoid the trots, but the main reason for not eating well-cooked spoiled poultry is that the bacterial counts are much greater than the fresh product. So if the 72 C temperature is not reached, there is a greater chance of an infectious dose of bacterial cells remaining on the food. And cross-contamination becomes a greater concern. That, plus it is kind of gross to cook and eat spoiled food. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

A little bit about it here A friend of mine has an 8x10 of the hand on his living room wall (Mahoney gave it to him). REALLY cool! 'Shell Oh, hey. You mean me. Yes, it's a great photo and the way Mahoney tells the story, it doesn't matter if it's a legend or not. The thing stays on my wall. Quack But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

Edited to add a pic of jumper03 after the loss! Love the one comment on that picture, from "Covered in Oil" on blogspot: "Wow. Those women look like they came straight out of an Israeli air-raid in Palestine. " Probably felt about the same after a shorthanded OT goal against. Quack But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

They didn't show up. They were outplayed, outclassed and outscored. Ah well ... they started the same way against San Jose so we'll see what coming back home to the house that Wayne built does for them. Go Oil! 'Shell Yeah, they were all that for the latter part of the game. But they did show up early on, just left early Like MacT says though, The series doesn't really begin until the away team wins one. Just picked up my game 4 fan pack! Quack But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

It'll be a good one tonight!

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

OK, I'm LMAO! And I'm laughing from experience with those things. They have them in Hungary as well. I could never figure out the purpose of the little shelf. (Sooner or later every conversation turns to bodily functions / toilet humour. You just cut to the chase.) But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

not sure of the name of mine. Here's a pic. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

Yes, and that is why avoparcin is not used in most countries (except Australia, and that may change soon). VRE is certainly a major concern, but let's not forget the contributions of the general public who demand antibiotics for what is usually a viral infection. And the irresponsible physicians who prescribe them. A lot of research is being done on antimicrobial resistance (AMR) in food animals for this reason. Unfortunately it takes more time sort it out than it took for us to create AMR problems in the first place. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

Antibiotic use is regulated in food animals. If residues are found that exceed the Maximum Residual Levels (MRL) then those animals do not enter the food chain. I'm not personally an advocate of antibiotic use in animals, for the reasons of antimicrobial resistance. But given that it is a practice of producers of food animals at least there are procedures in place to deal with it. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

HP is going to lose a lot of market share. Our work printers (brand new) won't work because of driver issues. HP's website has corrupt drivers and the support is non-existant. So now I have an expensive paperweight on my desk. But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms