br0k3n

Not improbable at all, what about the fact that during the first eight centuries of the evolution of Christianity, Christian art represented a lamb, and not a man, as suffering on the cross for the salvation of the world? Neither the paintings in the Catacombs nor the sculptures on Christian tombs pictured a human figure on the cross. Everywhere a lamb was shown as the Christian symbol -- a lamb carrying a cross, a lamb at the foot of a cross, a lamb on a cross. Some figures showed the lamb with a human head, shoulders and arms, holding a cross in his hands -- the lamb of God in process of assuming the human form -- the crucifixion myth becoming realistic. At the close of the eighth century, Pope Hadrian I, confirming the decree of the sixth Synod of Constantinople, commanded that thereafter the figure of a man should take the place of a lamb on the cross. It took Christianity eight hundred years to develop the symbol of its suffering Savior. For eight hundred years, the Christ on the cross was a lamb. But if Christ was actually crucified, why was his place on the cross so long usurped by a lamb? In the light of history and reason, and in view of a lamb on the cross, why should we believe in the Crucifixion? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Ok, i wil answer. Im 'other' I am what we call 'A Hopeless' 1-I dont care 2-I dont care 3-The direction that lets me fix it 4-I dont hope, I make it happen 5-The thought of doing something more fun and Beautiful tommorow. 1.- i dont care - does there need to be a purpose, no. 2 - see comment 1 3 - my family, my friends (real ones) 4 - If I have the power to change something that needs changing I will change if. 5 - The knowledge that I have only a brief spark of existance in which to live my life, and I am going to make damn sure I live my life and not just exist for 80 years or 100 if im lucky with the blind hope that there is a glorious afterlife. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Royd, do you understand what omniscient means?? –adjective 1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things. So your analogy doesn’t work because we are humans and an omniscient Gods. Now back to my point, if God is omniscient then we are unfortunately “puppets” as we would have no free will, otherwise we have a “paradox” So my point still stands, Christianity has to constantly attempt to re-define its God to avoid paradoxes. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Now I didn’t just wake up one morning I say, right that’s it im not believing in God anymore, (I was raised in a Christian family and regularly attended church as a child) I decided to approach it with an open mind, look at both sides of the argument, look at evidence for and against. After doing all this I came to the only logical conclusion. However it is still a learning process, and debating the subject is a great way to learn. Interestingly the more time I spend researching and debating the bible the stronger my Atheism grows, and I find it hard to understand how any educated person in this day and age believes otherwise and still embraces these myths, were not cavemen anymore… 10 simple facts against the story of Christ, now can someone perhaps Steveorino, Royd, maybe old Paj, or mockingbird, perhaps between the 4 of you come up with 10 simple “facts” for the story of Christ…. 1. There is NO evidence what so ever to support the stories of Christ as depicted in the bible. 2. Any evidence claimed is circumstantial and subjective. 3. Nobody knows who wrote the 4 gospels that tell the story of Christ 4. There is not the smallest fragment of trustworthy evidence to show that any of the Gospels were in existence, in their present form, earlier than a hundred years after the time at which Christ is supposed to have died. 5. There is absolutely nothing to show that these Gospels -- the only sources of authority as to the existence of Christ -- were written until a hundred and fifty years after the events they pretend to describe. Walter R. Cassels, the learned author of "Supernatural Religion," one of the greatest works ever written on the origins of Christianity, says: "After having exhausted the literature and the testimony bearing on the point, we have not found a single distinct trace of any of those Gospels during the first century and a half after the death of Christ." How can Gospels which were not written until a hundred and fifty years after Christ is supposed to have died, and which do not rest on any trustworthy testimony, have the slightest value as evidence that he really lived 6. To date there is not a single piece of archaeological evidence to support the gospels. We haven’t found the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail or even Noah’s ark, and even the Turin Shroud is a proven fake… 7. Between the earliest Gospels and the oldest existing manuscripts of the New Testament, there is a blank gulf of three hundred years. It is, therefore, impossible to say what the original Gospels contained. 8. The civilization of Rome was the highest in the world. The Romans were the greatest lawyers the world had ever known. Their courts were models of order and fairness. A man was not condemned without a trial; he was not handed to the executioner before being found guilty. And yet we are asked to believe that an innocent man was brought before a Roman court, where Pontius Pilate was Judge; that no charge of wrongdoing having been brought against him, the Judge declared that he found him innocent; that the mob shouted, "Crucify him; crucify him!" and that to please the rabble, Pilate commanded that the man who had done no wrong and whom he had found innocent, should be scourged, and then delivered him to the executioners to be crucified! Is that the Rome to which the world owes its laws? In reading the story of the Crucifixion, are we reading history or religious fiction? 9. John E. Remsburg, in his scholarly work on "The Christ," has compiled a list of forty-two writers who lived and wrote during the time or within a century after the time, of Christ, not one of whom ever mentioned him. 10. Christianity has to constantly attempt to re-define its God to avoid paradoxes. i.e [I]Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.[/I] ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

You might not say that satan was perfect but the bible does... Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) A great number of theologians including myself believe that passge does not refer to Satan, but to the king of Babylon, read the entire passage I have "read" the "entire" passage, and I dont see how you could come to any other conclusion that the passage refers to anyone but satan?? You can keep making excuses you have to face reality. Now just we are on the same page, here is my interpration. I have highled important sections to make it easy perhaps for you.. "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created till iniquity was found in you. 16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones. 17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor . . ." Ezekiel 28:12 Under the figure of "King of Tyrus," Ezekiel declares that this great-created being "had the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." Ezekiel 28:12–19 describes Satan’s original state as the anointed cherub who was not only a created being, but created perfect (vss. 12-13). He enjoyed the highest position and honor in the presence of God (28:14, 16). Further, Isaiah spoke of him as Lucifer, “star of the morning , son of the dawn” - Isaiah 14:12-15.He was on the holy mountain of God and every precious stone was his covering. He was set there as "the anointed covering cherub" by God and walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire. He was perhaps the appointed guardian of the holiness of God, probably over this original planet earth. The inspired record says, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" - Ezekiel. 28:12-15. So which bit exactly makes you and the "great" number of theologians beleive this passage relates to anyone but satan ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

You might not say that satan was perfect but the bible does... Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) who was perfect (Ezekiel 28:14,15) ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

No he doesnt, he cant have...... If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all its actions are predetermined. "There is a light switch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?" ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Wrong, Again.. If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all its actions are predetermined. "There is a light switch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?" e If you knew a decision you are going to make in the future... what would it mean? You would have no free will to change that choice. No option, no choices... based on the fact that you know it's going to happen, it is predestined and no amount of strong will can change it. The further in the future the predicted choice is, the less free will you have to change it! Well imagine if for infinity you'd always known exactly what choices you were going to make and that you could never be wrong. You would never have had any free will in any choice, ever! In effect your God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path... Why is so hard to understand!!!!!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Does your god have free will? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Ok then, but why did God not just simply place a glowing cross in the sky, that way we would all know that he exists and not just blindly hope so.... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

See, i don't buy this. The natural laws that God created like gravity and two things can't occupy the same place at the same time dictates accidents wil happen. My personal experience says God seldom intervenes into HIs natural laws. To say all things are God's will is not correct theologically. Can you please list these "natural laws". Now your not getting confused with the 4 known forces are you? 1. Gravity 2. Electromagnetic 3. The Strong Force 4. Weak Force ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

That's a nice way to put it. Your opinion, but Jakee has a valid point...... And I guess that answers your question Because, (actually it doesn't really bother me as much as it just make me feel sorry for you) you refuse to accept cold hard facts, years of document empirical evidence in favour of a old book, that was written years ago by authors unknown, depicted stories that cannot be proven and have no supporting evidence, and still to this day some 2000 years after the alleged life of Christ we’ve still no evidence, where is the holy grail, the ark of the covenant, Noahs ark, anything, anything at all. Let alone the fact that we also have no idea who wrote the 4 gospels that actually tell the story of Christ. As for the gospels, well The Gospel of John is admitted by Christian scholars to be an unhistorical document. They acknowledge that it is not a life of Christ, but an interpretation of him; that it gives us an idealized and spiritualized picture of what Christ is supposed to have been, and that it is largely composed of the speculations of Greek philosophy. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, which are called the "Synoptic Gospels," on the one hand, and the Gospel of John, on the other, stand at opposite extremes of thought. So complete is the difference between the teaching of the first three Gospels and that of the fourth, that every critic admits that if Jesus taught as the Synoptics relate, he could not possibly have taught as John declares. Indeed, in the first three Gospels and in the fourth, we meet with two entirely different Christs. Did I say two? It should be three; for, according to Mark, Christ was a man; according to Matthew and Luke, he was a demigod; while John insists that he was God himself. The concept is utterly utterly absurd. "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world." - Dawkins You desperately cling to this myth because the shear concept that you will die one day and that will be it for eternity is simply too incomprehensible for you cope with. Where as for me I’m quite comfortable with this fact, and therefore there is no space for religion in me. Also do you not find it somewhat "odd" that theChristian church is older than the oldest Christian writings. Christ did not produce the church. The church produced the story of Christ. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

The book of Job is widely celebrated as one of the great works dealing with the monotheistic problem of suffering: Why is there evil and suffering in a world created by a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent god? What tends to be glossed over by those praising the book is that God never gives a decent reason for the sufferings of the virtuous and upright Job. Instead, he blasts Job by saying, in effect, “Who are you, little man, to demand answers of me?” One reason this dodge is overlooked is the beauty and majesty of the verses when God answers Job out of the whirlwind. For example, consider Job 38:4-7: Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched a line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? This poem goes on for four chapters, with God’s paean to his own greatness only interrupted once by Job, who says he is of little account (Job 40:3-5), and capped by Job marveling at God’s greatness at the end (Job 42:1-6). It is a truly beautiful piece, but it fails to answer the Epicurean objection. Ecclesiastes shares with Job some of the most beautiful poetry ever written, but its message is one of utter cynical hopelessness. Our lives are vain and pointless precisely because God is omnipotent. The author recognized that if God knows and controls everything, there can be no chance. Everything is preordained. If this is true, then we really can have no free will. Since God has already made all the choices for us, there can be none for us to make. Not only that, there is no justice in the world. Neither virtue nor merit is necessarily rewarded. For all his omnipotence, God doesn’t seem to care much what happens to people. What did you get out of it Steveorino????? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Interesting that you raise the story of Job, Job is perhaps one of the best examples of the biblical god’s evil. Here, he has a faithful servant, who had not sinned, feared God (who wouldn’t?), and avoided evil. Job had a number of sons and daughters, thousands of sheep, camels, oxen, asses, and also had a large home. He even went so far as to offer sacrifices to God after feasts, just in case one of his sons had ever sinned (Job 1: 1-5). It seems unlikely to me that you would find a man in the Old Testament who loved God more than Job. So what was his reward? Did God multiply Job’s household and give him everything a man of great faith would require? Did God make his seed the rulers of great kingdoms? No. Quite the opposite, in fact. There came a time when Satan and the “…sons of God…” came to before the Lord. God asks Satan where he has been (wait…isn’t God omniscient?), and Satan says he has been walking around the earth. God asks Satan if he has “…considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man…” Satan says that he has met Job, and that he only loves God because he has so many great things and has been blessed so much. The Devil tells God that if God were to “…put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath…” that Job would curse God to his face (wait again…I thought no man has seen God face to face? John 1: 18, Exodus 33: 10, 1 John 4: 12). Basically, if God messes with Job’s stuff, Satan says, Job would hate God. The Lord already knows the answer (remember that whole omniscience thing), but for some reason decides he needs to basically destroy Job’s life through suffering, pain, ruin, and destruction in order to show Satan he is wrong. This would be a good time to go back to the start of the article and re-read what the definition of evil is. God knows Job would repent and come back to God after cursing him, but it’s not enough to know this. Instead, he has to prove Satan wrong, no matter what the cost. Sounds like pride to me when you can’t just be satisfied knowing you’re wrong, but have to be able to say, “Told you so!” Wasn’t pride the reason Satan became a fallen angel and was cast into Hell? Quick question here in case you have confusion as to who’s at fault here. Who’s responsible for a murder? A robot, or the scientist who created the robot and programmed it to kill? Remember, God made Satan and saw all the things he would do. In the first chapter of Job, God lets Satan go and mess up Job’s life a little bit, with the stipulation that he does not harm Job physically. First, every one of Job’s servants that watch his oxen, save for one, is slain. Secondly, great fire burns up all his thousands of sheep and the servants that watch them as well, save one. Next, his camels and servants that watch the camels are all slain, save for one. Ouch. Oh wait, to top it off a building collapses, killing all of his sons. This all happens on the first day that Satan is messing with Job, per God’s orders, remember. What does Job do? He shaves his head, and falls down and praises the Lord. (Job 1: 14-22) So the next time that Satan and the “…sons of God…” come to see the Lord, God again asks Satan where he has been (anyone else beginning to be confused about God’s omniscience?), and Satan says he has been traveling the world. God asks Satan about Job again, and Satan says (paraphrasing Job 2: 4-5), “Yeah, yeah. So you took what he had. A man will give everything he has for his life. If you torture him physically though, he’ll curse you.” God, again knowing what will happen, still tells Satan to go out and do what he will with Job, short of killing him. So Satan goes and infects Job with horrendous boils from the top of his head to the sole of his feet. At this point, even Job’s wife realizes how horrible God is being to Job, and says, “…curse God, and die.” (Job 2: 9). It’s understandable that she would be a little upset with Job, as his worship of this God has caused the death of her children. Job suffers for a long time, and his friends come to his house and the rest of the story is about Job suffering, and debating with his friends about God and his purposes. In the end, Job never curses God, and God gives the things back to Job twofold. So what is the moral of the story? That if you are faithful, God will double what you have. Oh, and if you’re faithful, God will destroy one of your homes, kill your children, kill your animals, kill your servants, and strike you with sores and boils from head to toe, so he can tell Satan, “Told you so! ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Is your God immoral? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Cool, so you've met the "creator", well atleast seen him, no..ok. But then you have had a conversation with him.... ermm no... hmm wierd... So if I had never seen, spoken to or met my wife, would I be in a relationship with her???? .... I doubt you would. But I have met my Lord, I have spoken to him and heard his voice. I've felt his presence. In fact He is more real to me than anything else. You have met Jesus where ???? did you take a photo, come on you must have taken a picture......... what did he look like????? please im really interested, tell me what he looked like. ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Cool, so you've met the "creator", well atleast seen him, no..ok. But then you have had a conversation with him.... ermm no... hmm wierd... So if I had never seen, spoken to or met my wife, would I be in a relationship with her???? me, am an Athiest and to me that means..Freedom.... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

back in my military days, a "Grand Slam" would be (usually after a big night on the beer) when you wake up to find that you have, pissed, deficated and vomited in your bed, all in the same night..... Thus achieving a "GRAND SLAM" ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Why do you say that? Its a valid theological question that has been asked many times in the past. Don't know if I've ever seen a serious answer to it - anyone know where I could find one? Thank you Jakee, I raised what I believed to be a valid point, and yet the believers out there call me "delusioned"!! but dont seem to be able to refute my statement with anything valid.... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

ok........ Im going to go outside and enjoy the sunshine and world I live in, without the need to attribute it all to some mythical sky god.... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

im working on it........ ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

I have done, now refute it......... if you can ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Well I don’t have a degree in theology, but do I need one to be able to understand the bible? As I’m sure most of the 3 Billion Christians in the world don’t have a degree in it either, but seem more then capable of “understanding and Interpreting” the Bible. Now I’ve read it and came to the conclusion that I have posted, the bible clearly states that Satan had free will, and that he knew right from wrong. The biblical God is by definition evil:- I have made this decision by looking at all the people that the Biblical God has killed, How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There is a list here and you have to admit its a (pardon the pun) hell of a lot [:-)] A few of my favourite:- 1. God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 2. God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 3. "The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 2,270,360+ killed 4. Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 Now would you not say these are acts of evil???? Therefore to rise up against evil you would have be considered “good”, which is what Satan did. Satan was proud, and rose up against God (Isaiah 15: 13-14, Ezekiel 28: 14-19). Therefore, he is judged, bruised, chained in darkness, and sent to Hell (John 12: 31, John 16: 11, Romans 16:20, Jude 6, 2 Peter 2: 4, Matthew 25: 41). It’s interesting to note that Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) who was perfect (Ezekiel 29: 15) and beautiful (Ezekiel 28: 17). The angels had free will, as is indicated by the fact that Satan chose to go against God. So do you refute this interpration? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Yeah that was the "Go God Go" episode I think, where Mrs Garrison marries Richards Dawkins. Wasn’t it a parody on the fact that even if we manage to do away with religion man kind will still take sides and find reasons fight and kill each other?? I think the best quote from that episode was [sic] “You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel. Congratulations.” ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

Did you mean "delusional"? If so how do you come to that conclusion? What would your interpretation be then???? ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+