RogerRamjet

I would refer you to this thread and your instructors about that: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1607525;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

This isn't directed specifically at you Chris (though your input is welcome too

Then do as several posters have advised, take the information you have read about here to your instructor and discuss it before deciding how you will handle this (or any) situation. He or she should be the one to help you set your EPs (whatever they may be) so they will be automatic when the time comes. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Here is a link to a picture of me 30 years ago under a Strato-Star with an orange cotton deployment bag which is inverted over the pilot chute: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Under_Canopy&image=Sturgis.jpg&img=&tt= I'm guessing no one is using cotton these days as it might not be so easy to stuff a ZP canopy into, I just don't know. I know the nylon bags I used were stiffer and would not invert (usually) like the cotton bag. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

This is a very interesting thread. I decided to reply to your post based on the force question, but have some other things to add. When we came up with the hand-deploy pilot chute as it was first called, we had no idea what size it should be. Bill figured 36" would be about right (and as usual, his first thought was pretty darned good). We made 3 different sizes (30, 36, and 40 inch) and Bobby Grey and I took off down the road in a car with a fish scale in hand. All three ran the needle off the scale by 50mph (50) lbs scale (NOTE: I didn't have any trouble holding on to it, not easy, but doable). I jumped the 36" inch the next weekend and it worked fine and that's what we went with in production. A couple of months later, I ran across the 30" prototype and decided to try it. I had a PC in tow mal. Fortunately, I had pulled at 3500 (2000 was common then) and reached back and pulled the bridle loop free by hand. The bag took off SLOWLY and my main deployed around 2000'. To you who think this is a good idea, please note that I was watching the deployment since it was a TEST jump so knew I had a PC in tow instantly. The time to pull it loose and get under an open canopy took 1500 ft. How long do you suppose it would take when you're not expecting it? Let's take another really experienced, very aware jumper, Roger Nelson, who reeled a PC in tow in and note that as good as he is (was), he got his reserve open at 150'... http://www.cs.fiu.edu/~esj/uwf/uwf8.htm One thing I really agree with Bill Booth on (not just because I worked for him at one time

Or an unconscious or disabled landing.... but I see your point, faster/higher is certainly preferable. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Well, I'm with you on most of your comments, but the parachute was invented well before the airplane dude..... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Did they ever exist? I've not been in the sport long enough to comment, but I'd guess not... Not really, at least when I was jumping. A couple of things have changed since then that make the lack of pattern adherence more dangerous. When the canopies flying around were Paracommanders and Cheapos, there really wasn't much of an issue. Then the Strato-Star and 7 cell Foil were introduced and RW jumpers suddenly had high performance (for the time) canopies. Still, there wasn't much going on pattern wise or collision wise. Why? Well, I think two things have changed since then that have made all this much scarier: 1) Canopy performance has increased to an incredible level. I went to the Keys boogie a few months ago and was stunned by how fast the canopies fly even in a straight line. 2) Swooping/hook turning has become common. These canopies can attain 100/fps decent rates and very high forward speeds compared to the squares of old. This has caused the relative safe space between flying canopies to be greatly extended in my opinion. If someone makes a hook (90, 180, 270, whatever) to gain speed for a swoop, they have radically reduced the time required to avoid an unforeseen issue. Those issues, other canopies that maybe made a turn of their own during your spiral, are also moving faster than they used to, exacerbating the problem. This is what scares me, not that you can't scan and get the sight picture of where everyone is and will be, but that during the (short?) period you lose the picture, one or more of those people may have made a turn. Since you and they are moving so much faster these days, the margins for error have gotten very narrow. I have one hook turn on a Strato-Star which has to be silly slow compared to what I saw at the boogie. I always felt relatively safe in a sky full of Strato-Stars and 7 Cell Foils back then. It scared me just to watch from the ground at the boogie... I'm not against high performance canopies (I had the first Stato-Star in Florida) or swooping for that matter. I do see that mixing those that just want to land with those that want to swoop is dangerous. If I come back into the fold, I will be doing some research into where and how people are landing before deciding on where I land. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I have attached mine. Mine was in a drawer in my living room, just saw it Thursday while looking for something else. I should frame and hang it! The instructor's name is missing though, it was Jim Hooper. Yes, that's July 1, 1973.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

*** Was it the Para Plane that bit that hard or the rings & ropes? I had / have a 'Sport 260' Strato Cloud with rings & ropes...and it was without question the softest opening parachute I've ever jumped. It seemed to take just as long to open...as it did to pack! Didn't that Strato-Cloud have the rings on the lower surface though? The original lower surface rings and ropes strato-star opened VERY softly too. The original Para Plane and Para Cloud however had upper surface rings and ropes (and even packed differently for sub-terminal vs terminal) and opened FIRMLY. The terminal openings on the Para Plane were the hardest openings of anything I ever jumped... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

You have said what I have been thinking for some time now (and very well said too). I keep wondering how the evolution to the current state of affairs was allowed to happen. In 1973 when I started, Z-Hills (a commercial center at the time) required you have 200 jumps before you could jump a square. What makes current students so intrinsically better than we where then? The statistics seem to show that they aren't any better and worse, the stats show a high percentage of the landing injuries and deaths are on high jump number individuals as well. It appears to me (admittedly never having swooped in the modern sense of the word) that high performance landings bring the margin of error to such a small tolerance, that a very small mistake in judgment can be fatal. We used to say you could make one or two mistakes on a skydive and survive (most of the time), but this rule does not seem to hold for high performance landings.... I also agree that if the sport doesn't find a way to police itself in this regard, some agency will... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Jumping a ram-air with out any reefing, i.e. slider, is brutal. You are lucky you didn't bite your tongue off. Sparky I think (I hope) he meant "with the reefing systems of the time." I believe jumping a Para-Plane or Cloud of the time without any reefing would have broken bones (tongue not withstanding)... The early upper ring reefing systems on those canopies opened "Briskly" to say the least ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I put Deana Martin (Dean Martin's daughter) out on her first static line jump in about 1974. Don't know that she was ever famous in her own right though... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

2.2 years in, 350 jumps. Lineover on 28' round (cheapo). Switched to square (Strato Star) for remaining 650 jumps, no mals. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Well, at least you have some color to offset the OD, Jim had pure OD, trim and all.... Long beards... when I built the first Wonderhogs for Bill Booth, he had no beard at all. It doesn't seem to have had an effect on his thinking ability but I thought he looked better without it (sorry Bill). I'm sure Pam Tayon who Bill and I both rented a room from and Bill rented her garage for the first RWS shop has a picture of him somewhere with no beard. I looked through my stuff and I don't have one. Maybe she will see this thread and post one for us if Bill hasn't paid her off ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Man.. you know whats wierd.. seeing someone actually order and pay big bucks for brand new sport gear.. in OD Green.... To me.. that is just wrong on far toooooo many levels.. When I was building Eagle rigs for Bill Buchman in 1975, Jim Hooper ordered one in OD Green. We had to special order the fabric. Only Jim would wear the latest style rig with the earliest style colors... He was transitioning from a B12 with a (you guessed it) OD green pop-top reserve. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Don't change it to 10 years Sandy. I had mine at 7 years and was nothing but trouble I posted that I was in the first 16 man diamond and the first 20 man papillon in a thread and got several emails from people wondering how that could be since I had just started jumping 7 years ago After a few of these type incidents, I changed it to what you see. Like you, I still identify with the sport and still know a number of active jumpers. I occasionally attend a meet or drop by a DZ when I can. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

FJC (static line) at Z-Hills in 1973 was $40.00. Remaining static line jumps (4) where $40.00. I taught the course in 1974 and the prices were the same then as for my FJC (july of 73). Ahh, those were the days, teach students, pack T-10s, and jump...

Andy who, from where in Florida? Do I know you? We certainly were jumping at the same time.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Dan's book is wrong on this one.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

At Z-Hills in '73 it was: 2 Static Lines 3 DRCP Static Lines 3 Hop & Pop 3 5 sec delay 3 10 sec delay 3 20 sec delay 3 30 sec delay off student status... so 20 jumps for me (Except I was a rotton student and took 9 static lines, so 24 for me). No one seemed to care about licenses then except style or accuracy jumpers. I never got nor missed having any USPA license. I did demos, night jumps, air show jumps, whatever; no one ever asked for or required a license at that time. Things have probably changed for the better in that regard... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

When I was active (73-80), I met exactly 2 black skydivers in my travels. I jumped at some pretty large and active places also including Z-Hills, Deland, Hinkley, and a few others. I asked one of these guys that question then and he responded "Black poeple are afraid of heights." I believe he was dead serious though I never had the chance to ask anyone else. I think all humans are "afraid of heights" so some extent, so I'm sure it's more than just that. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I was 20. 1st jump was July 1, 1973 at Z-Hills. It also happened to be the day the legal age in Florida dropped from 21 to 18.... I had been waiting 6 months to make my first! ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Anyone else think a brand new rig with 150 jumps having ANYTHING wear out is a little strange? Edited to add: Or was this a manufacturing defect? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

And.. doesn't it follow then that your wing loading will go up some as porosity does? Is that canopy at jump one which you are loading at 1.0 actually more like 1.2 at 1000 jumps (arbitrary figures of course)? Thanks everyone for your input, I calculate my Strato-Star wing loading to have been about .94 based on my exit weight at the time (135lbs me, 10lbs clothes, 24lbs rig). ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519