CooperNWO305

10,000 bills. About 300 were found at Tina Bar. If that means Cooper was in the water, then where is the rest of the money? All 300 bills were found together too. Most of the money was not likely in the water, so with that logic, Cooper was not in the water. The case is deep, take a look at some of the theories, you'll find that there are many, and many have nothing to do with Cooper landing in the Columbia. I'll defer to an aviation expert, but my understanding is that Portland's elevation is about at sea level (50 feet), Seattle is around 150-175 feet. A man jumping from 10,000 feet at a target around 50 feet, will fall close to 10,000 feet. If they were over a mountain, then it would be different.

People have said Cooper died and have used the missing person argument like Dick Lepsy to explain who he was. The logic is that the reason no one claimed Cooper is because he was a missing person and therefore already missing.

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This is a 9 mile by 3 mile box. Just for visual representation. Cooper would have had to jump over the widest part of the Columbia to even have a chance of landing in the river. The river is about 1,000 meters wide at its widest. I may be off by a little there. Based off the pressure bump, he was likely out of the plane before the river, probably over Battle Ground. I used this approach when explaining how he likely did not land in Lake Merwin, and modified it for the Columbia. Landing in the river is a fallacy. A missing person not accounted for at that specific day and time in 1971? That’s another fallacy.

Robert: I generally agree with you on the search area size. 3 minutes of flight time, and a drift of about a mile either way, gives us around 18 square miles. For anyone who thinks he went into the Columbia, I would suggest making a box of 18 square miles, center it on the flight path, and then center it over whatever drop zone you choose (even center it on the widest part of the Columbia) and then see how much of that 18 square miles covers water and how much covers land. The answer is that there is much more land in the drop zone than there is water. You could drop a parachutist out of a plane 100 times, and maybe hit the Columbia a few times. Imagine a small island in the middle of the ocean, and a parachutist. What would be more likely, landing in water or landing on land? The answer is water, not land. That is the same set up as the Columbia, except in reverse. Also, even if Cooper landed in the Columbia, that does not mean he landed smack dab in the middle. He could have landed just a few feet from shore. Bottom line is that there is a much higher probability that he landed on land than water.

Welcome to the case. When I saw Zodiac mentioned, my first thought was that you are wasting your time trying to get on the DB Cooper Forum, but then you let us know that you don't think Zodiac and DB Cooper are the same guy, so all good. I think Shutter sees most of the posts here (he runs the Cooper Forum). It's up to him to approve people. You'll actually get some good discussion here, but definitely try to get on the DB Cooper Forum too. The problem here is that it can go sideways quickly with spam, or incessant back and forth about personal disputes. As for the Columbia River theory. A question for you: What size area do you think the dropzone consisted of? The plane is flying about 3 miles a minute, the winds are anywhere from zero to 20 (depending on who you talk to, or what altitude he was at), and he could have opened up at 10,000 feet or 1,000 feet. Given that, what would a realistic search area be in square miles? And where would that be centered around? Ariel, Battle Ground, Vancouver, etc.

What is the purpose of the maps? Or is he just asking for maps for the pilots thinking they will need them. Seems like an odd request. We know he got the money and the parachutes. What happened to the maps?

Dudeman-Did you ever jump near Sacramento in the 70's? Or would you know if there were any jump centers near there in 1971? I found a family connection to a suspect and want to see if I can find out if that family member jumped. It's a long shot, but I'm curious.

It's a good video. I personally liked the graphics, not just for the quality, but for the visual representation of where he sat, and how the flight attendant was strapped in a seat behind him. I'd love to see someone do a video of the whole caper in that format, from walking into the airport in Portland, to walking down the aft stairs, including ordering the drinks, etc.

The DB Cooper thread has become a cesspool. One spammer keeps posting porn. That thread has become an embarrassment to skydivers. Posters on there can post other places on the web, they don't need the DZ anymore if it is going to be how it is now. If the spammers can't be controlled, then it should be shut down and archived.

Flyjack: What are you seeing in terms of a bulge? Where is it? I go back and forth on whether Cooper had help, or if somewhere along the line there was money changing hands. I could argue both sides, but do not have proof either way. People in their 20's do stupid things sometimes. If we found out for sure that a stew got money, or even helped in some way, I would not be surprised, but I also would not be surprised if it was a solo job. Robert: You have done some research on other hijackings. Did the FBI or law enforcement question all passengers, crew, maintenance workers, etc. in all of those? I wonder if the FBI assumed that this would be solved quickly, and therefore it was not economical or logical to go down into the weeds of everything. In their shoes, I would have focused on catching the guy right there and then, and may not have taken the time to do more detailed work. If you know you'll catch him soon, why go through all the hassle? I personally would like to see pictures of every passenger, and worker involved in that flight. Names, place of birth, etc. Not that it would necessarily help right now, but someday if this is solved or we have a good suspect, there will be an opportunity to see if we can really tie things back. Himmelsbach put the crew above suspicion. That does not seem to be the standard procedure in a crime now. A bank robbery investigation would likely look at the employees first.

Robert: The spammer has nothing to do with Bruce. Anyone interested in the case can go to any of the websites like Mountain News or the Cooper Forum. Just because they are on those sites does not mean they support everything that goes on. Calm down. Bruce's credibility is doing just fine.

Nicky raised a point at The Cooper Forum about the Raleigh cigarettes, James Bond/Dan Cooper comic, etc. It may or may not get some discussion over there. I sense some of the long time posters there have already discussed many topics through the years and may be worn out on these theories. Nicky, we may be in agreement that the Raleigh cigarettes were not his usual brand. It makes sense to me that if he was hiding other parts of his persona, why not the cigarettes too. Why smoke your regular brand and possibly give yourself away? So much of the hijacking seemed to have a flair about it, so why not the cigarettes too? I had done some searching a while back on those cigarettes. They were a popular brand, but not the most popular. I looked at old advertisements for those, but did not see anyone famous as a spokesperson (granted it was a cursory search). Question-did anyone famous smoke Raleighs? Did James Bond? I know Sean Connery smoked in his Bond movies, but were the cigarettes Raleighs? Did Dan Cooper smoke cigarettes in the comic? Were those cigarettes in any movies or books? Flyjack this seems right up your alley.

Robert-You were on the podcast. How many have you listened to? Darren is knowledgeable about the case, and he has opinions, but as a host he does a great job of staying neutral. Anyone who posts at the Cooper Forum knows that links are only available to those who log in.

It would be great to see a minute by minute log of what was said and what happened with sources cited for each entry, and if there are discrepancies, then have those listed too. Sluggo has a good timeline, but if that was combined with some of the guys who know a lot of the intricate details, that would be cool. If this COVID thing keeps going I may have a few days of DB Cooper time to organize all my notes. For those on here: Did Cooper ever say to fly south? Did he say anything about which direction to take off? Or did he just say Mexico and then Reno? Would he have known if the pilots decided to fly over the ocean instead (I'm guessing he would at some point), but couldn't they have flown over the ocean and then cut south claiming that was a normal flight path?

Flyjack: That would be crazy if the parachute that was found was Coopers, but that the FBI was looking for a different chute. Case Closed replayed yesterday on History. On Friday 3/13 the Wiki page on Cooper had 2,449 visitors. Yesterday there were 27,781. Part of that has to do with people staying in due to COVID-19, but the point here is that when there are shows on TV about Cooper, people get interested.

Fly. I’m trying to visualize this. Cooper says no to military chutes, but he ends up using a military chute or a partial military chute given it was 1971? Or was it that he used a civilian container that had a military harness with a military canopy? I have not spent a lot of time on the chutes, except to zero in on the fact that he put on a harness easily. I assumed the harness was military spec. As always, great info. Although I respect the FBI, they are not infallible. I still think there are Cooper researchers who know more about the case than any agent, simply for the fact that an independent researcher can stay on the case for much longer.

Does anyone know what Air Force units were stationed at McChord in November of 1971 in terms of bombers or cargo planes that might have flown with just regular backpack chutes versus ejection chutes? Any Army freefall jumpers at Fort Lewis? It definitely would have sucked if you're DB Cooper and you ask for parachutes and get static lines or ones with AAD's.

On The Cooper Vortex episode with Martin Andrade, he mentions that his dad who was a fighter pilot tried to put on the same type of chute that Cooper likely used, and it took him a little while. Martin Jr. also wore harnesses a lot in his job, and he found it difficult to put on. So from that perspective, even someone with harness or parachute experience could find it difficult to put on the Cooper chute. Cooper did it easily, which opens up some questions. Was he faking it? Did he have experience with that chute/harness, or maybe experience with multiple types of harnesses?

Flyjack: Are you of the belief that Cooper jumped with a military rig vs a civilian rig and that he could have chosen either a civilian rig or military rig, but chose the military rig? That's my understanding.

Think about it like this. Have you ever been on a boat and gone through the training in case it sinks? You put on a life jacket, you tie it, you get ready to get in life boats, you talk about what to do, etc. But sometimes you never really actually get into the water. That's the difference between an exercise and the real thing. The military does this all the time, it's called training. Cooper could easily have been an aircrew member who trained for the eventuality of jumping from a plane, but may actually have not ever jumped from a plane. Larry Carr called Cooper a know it all, one who got the broad strokes down, but not the details. Cooper could have had all the practice steps down, and that one day in 1971 decided to take the final step of jumping in the water so to say. Hahneman was an aircrew member, so he would know harnesses, but did he ever jump (until 1972?). He may never have jumped until that one day, but he was comfortable right up to the point that he left the aircraft, so it was not a huge leap for him to go that last few inches.

A good thing about these forums is that the discussion keeps us current on the case and keeps ideas flowing through our brains. I need a refresher often. Question: Today the skydiving rigs are all mainly civilian, and are not similar to military chutes. However, in 1971 the sport was just advancing, and skydiving rigs could be composites of different types of chutes, harnesses, containers, etc. Would someone who had a few skydives under their belt necessarily be familiar with putting on a military harness? Could their jumps have all been with more civilian type gear?

I believe we are talking about the same things, but in different contexts. Putting on a harness quickly indicates that Cooper was familiar with harnesses, but it does not necessarily indicate that he was an experienced skydiver. I think Fly, R99, and I would agree on this. One group that would be good with harnesses would be aircrews. Where we may diverge is on the level of skydiving experience, and whether or not this would have resulted in his survival. I'm of the Martin Andrade school where I think he could have jumped out and been a lot like a pilot or aircrew bailing out of a plane. Most pilots and aircrews that bailed out of planes (B-17s in WW2, F-4's in Vietnam, etc.) would likely have been on their first jump. The intent was not for these guys to jump out of a plane, but to land in the plane. The military does not send all aircrews through parachute training, just basic bail out techniques and survival. Remember, parachutes were for getting out of a damaged plane, they were not meant for fun. In most cases the chutes worked. If a kid jumping from a burning B-17 over Germany could pull a ripcord, then DB Cooper could have too, especially if he did it while sitting on the back stairs. No one was shooting at him, the plane was not in flames. I believe Cooper knew how to put on a harness, but was not a skilled skydiver. He could have had a few jumps. He may have practiced in the military, even gotten on a plane back when there were not as many rules as today. He may have practiced a jump at a place like Elsinore. It is also possible that Cooper never actually parachuted out of a plane, but did have parachute experience. How is this possible? Well, the Navy trained their air crews in parachute techniques using a para sail type set up. Army Airborne used towers.

He would have trouble stabilizing because of a 20 pound bag of money tied to his body, but not because it was dark or he could not see the horizon. If he had any skydiving experience, or parachute free fall training, he would have known to arch his body. He could have done this in the dark, or with his eyes closed.