Ron

well at least I didn't start this one "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. Stocker/Bagger 6 mths 2. Pool Table installer 3 years 3. Security Guard 5 mths 4. Martial Arts Instructor 4 years. 5. Car wash...1 day. 6. Handler at freight company 7. Equipment Operator at same freight company 8. Restricted Articals Agent/Spill clean up Agent at same freight company 9. Ramp Agent (Performing Weight and Balance on 727/DC10/MD11/Airbus Aircraft.)at same freight company 10. US ARMY 11B. Military Leave 3 years 82ND Airborne 11. Service Assurance at same freight company. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Comming from someone with his head so far up his own ass...I'll take that as a complement. Try to look outside your own ass. And you STILL HAVE NOT OFFERD ANY SOLUTION EXCEPT TO BITCH AN BELLY ACHE TO THOSE WHO ARE TRYING... It is easy to bitch...much harder to take an active roll...Which you have avioded at evry chance when any of us have asked. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Like I said get some experience, loose some friends, and come back and talk to me. Since I have been doing this 10 years and have almost 3,000 jumps...I know you were not talking to me. Just becasue I care about the future of the sport, and the people in it.... Grow in the sport. Care for someone other than yourself. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't get it.....If you don't look at the problems they grow.... Get 1,000 more jumps...Loose a few friends...Then talk to me. I hope for your sake, and your families and friends that its not you next. Or would you be OK with that? Your family OK with that? Most legal threats have come from family members of dead skydivers. Get over the "Its not a large part of the whole therefore not worth looking at" What % or what raw # would YOU say is to many. Have you lost anyone yet? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bad joke on my part.....I call Tony H (10,000 jumps) "old" and scared for jumping a 120. HP is relative to wingload... Big is relative to personal view...I see a 120 as big. But I have spent almost 1,000 jumps on canopies that size or larger. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree with you...And if you notice it is people below 500 jumps that are giving you friction. They just don't get it. I didn't at that level either. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe, but they are still the #1 cause of deaths. In my job, I track and trend different indices. I then look at the trends and try to spot any negative issues. I then try to formulate a corrective action plan, and give it to the top brass. Then I wait to see if they use it, and if it works... I have seen the negative trend in fatalities for several years... Since 1996 the #1 cause of deaths were skydivers under perfect canopies. Almost more than double from any year prior to 1992. We saw this trend, and the manufacturers tried to limit who can get the "cool" stuff..My first Stiletto I had to sign TWO WAIVERS to get it...And I had to lie like hell to PD who called me to see if I should really get one....And I hooked it right in on jump #3 on it. Then the second hand market and some other parachute makers stoped really caring who they sold what to. So regulation from the manufactorer and the gear stores didn't work. Some DZ's didn't let you jump small stuff. Hell, I was one of the first people to jump an Extreme, and people used to watch to see the new small toy....But that went away as more came around. Instructors are not able to teach you everything you need ot know in the FJC...And not every DZ has S&TA's that can watch every person and baby sit. Some people take the "It's a free world, let Darwin work" mentality. So education is not working.... Whats left? Regulation...But not just regulation...It will take Regulation to keep them from getting in over thier heads, Education to help them learn how to handle what they do have, and Observation from the "Adults" to help curb bad habits. It is all apart of the recipe for lowering the #1 cause of deaths....And when this is no longer the top cause...I'll start looking at the next one. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Notice that I said "Large"...I think large is 135 Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Brother I never really took it personal. I understand your issue, but using AOPA as an example. Aircraft cost a lot...Skydiving rigs are next to nothing compared. Most of the insurance you see is for the Aircraft...not the pilot. Also most people don't think of flying is as crazy as skydiving, so it is easier to get those type of ad's. I am glad that you are so careful with you health/family/resorces...Most in this sport are not. But then again, I know a lot of World Champions in this sport that live in trailers...So there is not that much money in the sport for many people to take it seriously. The fact still stands that education is not working....In my ground school (almost 10 years now) I still remember my Instructor telling me about the dangers of flying the canopy into the ground and killing yourself. I still managed to hook it in on a 1.4 loaded Stiletto on jump #375. AND I had Charlie Mullins as a canopy coach...AND I STILL HOOKED IT IN. If it were not for the fact I was young (22) And that it was not a higher wingload...I might be dead. So it is a big issue with me...I have felt the ground...And I would save as many people from it as I can. As it stands, now some say I have a nice hook....But I took my time learning it, and have seen may people carted away from trying to go to small to fast. I think the USPA is WAY behind. I think the USPA makes TONS of STUPID choices every year..I could go into it, but thats another thread. (BTW is it true that USPA gave a waiver to Perris for RSL's for non licensed jumpers? Anyone?) But regulation while distasteful will save lives....Or at least protect them a little longer so that they can die a little later. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And still more fun to watch them from the ground!!!! More fun still to watch them from the ground standing near the bunker!!! Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have a friend of mine with 10,000 jumps (Tony Hathaway)... He jumps a 120 Specter. His Wife (5,000 jumps) jumps a Stiletto 120. A lot of VERY Experienced people jump what most people would call "large" canopies It's not uncool. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your not reading MY original post....I said that you can't learn from video....That is to say you can not learn to swoop by WATCHING VIDEO.... You can show them as a bad example of what not to do... Which is your point which I NEVER dissagreed to, You dissagreed with my point which I think you didn't truely understand. We are taking up to much time...any more issues with this PM. me "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

An INSTRUCTIONAL video is nothing with out practical application... It can not replace ACTUAL jumps. It can give information, but not experience... Too many times a guy will get som video and think that he has learned from it... Well, watching people hook...Even on an instructional tape...equals nothing with out application and exercises. Im not saying they are worthless, but they will not make you a swooper...only experience can do that. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, I am looking at a Parachutist from 8/02...Its the only one I have in my office. The cover is of guys doing CRW with small canopies. It says that they are all members of the factory teams...That tells me they are good...Not just some shmuck. Javelin ad...shows a guy swooping...and a guy jumping some crazy board thingy...And CRW... There is an artical on a swoop meet.... There is a picture of my old team...Old Paragear cover..(Had to throw that in). An ICARUS add....showing some swooping. An artical on the ART OF SWOOP SURVIVAL..... And an ad for PD showing a swooper. So 3 ad's with swoopers....And a meet report on a meet...And a saftey artical.. Yeah they sure seem to be pushing swooping.. Hey dude they don't make the ad's..The company paying to run them does. Ro "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It was a statement to all those who say "But I am different..I went to a canopy control class, and bought "FLY LIKE A PRO"!!!!" Watching video does not make you a better skydiver, or canopy pilot....If watching TV did these things, I should be able to drive like the guys on "Dukes of Hazzard", and be as fit as the chicks I watch working out on ESPN. Ro "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't see your point... It is quite clear what the #'s say. PEOPLE WITH LESS THAN 500 JUMPS ARE DIEING AT A GREATER RATE THAN PRIOR YEARS UNDER OPEN CANOPIES. How does that not say that? Yes you could look at total jumps per year per person at each level ,and you could throw in Density Altitude and the fatalities of guys named bob...But the only real important thing is that people with less than 500 jumps are trying to go to small to fast and getting themselves killed...The numbers show the problem. Ro "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im not too lazy 2001 36 fatalities. 12 under canopies. only 5 under 500 jumps 1. 30 y/o, 4700 jumps 2.0 Wing load 2. 38 , 1 jump student 3. 41, 920 1.5 4. 40, 4000 CRW landing (lost toggle) 5. 52, 40, 1.1 Wing load 6. 39, 600, no WL info 7. 30, 70 jumps, Wingloading listed for EXPERT 8. 41 ,3300 1.4 turbulance 9. 40 , 1000 Demo into Stadium. 10. 63, 4000 low turn at DEMO 11. 23, 201 jumps 1.3 WL 12. 29 467 CRW landed in lake. 2000 32 fatalities 8 with good canopies 1. 28 y/o, 178 jumps 1.1 wingload 2. ?, 100 jumps, 1.3 WL 3. 39 , ?, ? this skydiver made an intentional turn low to the ground to pick up speed for landing 4. 25, 1200, 1.5 WL 5. 43, 100, ? WL 6. 42 ?,? 7. 42 , 98 ?WL 8. 42, 1000, ?WL Seems to me that the # of EXPERIENCED jumpers dieing under canopy is lowering..While new guys with less than 500 jumps increases..... Huh? I wonder why? Oh maybe EXPERIENCE? Something that no amount of classes and videos will give you with out the jumps...Yes, Just having a lot of jumps does not mean you have skills, but it does mean you have EXPERIENCE. Something you will not get without jumps. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well several people were DEAD wrong last year.... People THINK they are better than the last guy to bounce. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well since you have all the answers feel free to share. It seems that most people are dying because they let egos select canopy size....Yep, more people in the over 500 jump class will die insted of the under 500. But I bet that if you regulate..AND educate while these jet jockys are doing jumps to get to the cool wingload...They might actually survive. Problem is that now any shmuck can get a small canopy and try to learn under it. Some places say hell no, some say hell yes...Not everywhere has the canopy schools that some larger DZ's have. So education is not working....I don't even pretend that regulation will make the problem dissapear, but it will reduce it, and hell the only thing we loose is low timers not getting the cool toys as soon as they want...I am ok with that. You can yell about your personal freedom...Which this does not take away, it only makes it so you have to have more experience before you can make such a choice. Again, its just like pull altitudes...There were there to help eliminate low pull deaths...And they worked..So will this. Low timers want to be cool...They almost all think that they are above the power curve...Many are wrong and die. Regulation is a part of life...I can't drink and drive..I can't do AFF (I don't have the ticket), I am not allowed to fly a twin engine airplane, I can't ride a motorcycle (don't have the ticket), not just anyone can do tandems, I can't pull where I like, I can't go through clouds, I can't jump a rig that is out of date, I can't drink and jump. All of these are there to protect me, and you from me..I'm ok with them. If you can't deal with that concept...get a therapist. ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yerah I did...sorry to snap..But I get A LOT of flack from people when I get on this subject....Sorry. That is the thing...A canopy is only as good as the pilot. Many times I have out swooped someone on a smaller Xbraced design with my Stiletto 107...Why? Well maybe its the almost 2,000 jumps I have on a Stiletto 107. Yes, a guy with a clue and a better wing will beat me. And I know quite a few guys that have great swoops with 135's. Hell I just did my 1st jump on a specter 107 last weekend. I have to say I liked it, and I did a fairly good pond swoop with it...I did bail out early since I had no clue when it whould stop flying and make me start swimming but I think I could out swoop a few guys I know on it. It's not the wing. I think if they are forced to fly the wings they have longer once they think they have "mastered" it insted of downsizing...They will learn more. I am all about freedom..I don't want to get rid of them, or outlaw them...I just want to delay when you can get them till after some more experience is gained. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So do you think that I don't have the interests of people in my mind and hart? I am sick of hot shot, low time ego maniacs that think they know it all better than everyone. These people refuse to listen to the voice of experience....And are doomed to make every mistake for themselves...The difference is that they are not living through the mistakes like we used to. Canopy selection based on ego, not skill is the largest single contributor to the fatalities page...And how many more are serouisly injured every year affecting not only them, but all of those that care for them, and all of us that have to pay more for medical care, insurance...ect. If you look at the "master swoopers" you will see that they took a very simple step progression to get where they are. There are no short cuts. What makes these hot shots think that they are better than these masters and can progress faster? Ego thats all... And yes I think that we own it to let them live long enough to have more knowledge so they can make an informed choice. If regulation is the only way to do that...Fine with me. Like I have said before...Thats why there are min pull altitudes in the SIM. Do these affect some peoples right to chose their own destiny...Yep, but you don't hear people bitching about them. I am all about letting people jump what they want...AFTER they have learned enough to handle it. But then now we have to be able to certify that they do know what they are doing...And it has to be the same standard everywhere. Thats a lot more work. It is already clear that some DZO's don't care....Some restrict to much, I bet some don't have a clue. Under the simple to use jump # to wingload....Injuries should go down...Fatalities should go down....And I think most peoples skills will go up...These hot shots want small so fast that they don't learn everything they can under the canopy that they have now before they downsize. Skills can be learned under any size canopy. And they can always get that X braced pocket rocket 99....After 500 jumps. What is the damn rush? Like it or not...regulation is going to come... I am for it. I would hope that we can make an easy to use...Simple to understand program. Not everyone will like it, but I bet people bitched about the min pull altitudes when they came out as well. I plan on pitching this idea to the USPA. You 100 jump wonders that don't like it...Pitch against it. I am not worried about your input, I welcome it. And then if it happens and you don't like it...Get 500 jumps and then go kill yourselves. Education is not working. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well you are asking alot of EVERYBODY. I know some people that have no clue they are waiting to die...And I know others that don't know that their buddy is a crater waiting to happen. But THATS NOT ALL THEY RISKED.....They risk getting a DZ sued...Laws getting passed the FAA getting involved. Yep..Who said he had to hook it? You will try to hook it, and you might just die...He might just fly the thing very safe.... Nope, but the military guy that showed up at the DZ sure thought it was all that was needed...But then he was wrong...You know that because you have more EXPERIENCE than him....His buddies thought it he was right. Just like someone with more EXPERIENCE that you might think that you should not have a small canopy...Point is we didn't let the guy jump...no mater what he felt he knew about it...He didn't...Just like you may not. NO MATTER WHAT HIS PERSONAL FREEDOMS WE STEPED ON. Nope not much at all...but it is 9 deaths that if five of them removed their heads from their asses and didn't let ego select canopy size would still be around. And that much less death and destruction in a SPORT.... The USPA, FAA both think it IS their jobs to do just that...Thats why we have min pull altitudes, and pilots need training. And I for one think I have a resposability not to let stupid people do stupid things if I can save them that pain. If more peole were like me, and not like you...We would have less people dead/injured every year...I know its not the "cool" thing to care about people that don't know enough to care about themselves. But it is the right thing to do. You don't get it, and it is clear you will not...talk to me after you have some more EXPERIENCE in this sport. How many people have you know to die? Me WAY to many...Just lost one this weekend. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So now you want the USPA to have canopy control courses?...Read my other posts about the problems that will start...then answer them. Your asking for a lot more work...And the USPA will not do it. Yeah, and all of the people that died last year all thought they had the skills...and natural ability to handle the canopy they died under. Yep better than you at 250 jumps...How many of your 250 are at your current wingload? Lets look at some Incidents from last year. Total accidents 33. From low turns 9. 1. 28 y/o 135 jumps, panic turn 1.0 WL 2. 28 y/o 270 jumps, hook turn 1.6 WL 3. 32 y/o 200 jumps, hook turn 1.7 WL 4. 22 y/o 275 jumps, hook turn 1.63 WL 5. 24 y/o 201 jumps, panic turn ?? Unknown wingload CRW jump 6. 33 y/o 1,500 jumps, hook turn 1.5 WL 7. 34 y/o 500 jumps...no other info Conneticut Parachutes Incoporated 8. 45 y/o 170 jumps, hook turn 1.4 WL 9. 24 y/o 160 jumps, 90 deg turn 1.3 WL So only 1 had more than 500 jumps. 379 was the average jump #. 1.4 was the AVG wingload. 7 were male, 2 female. 2 Panic turns to avoid an object. (Both Female) 5 Hook turns. 1 low turn (90 deg 160 jumps) 1 unk. (Conneticut Parachutes Incoporated). So I see a very clear picture here. 20-35 y/o Males, with less than 500 jumps with a 1.5 wingload seem to die A LOT more than any other segment. Seems simple to me that there is a problem. There are canopy schools out there...But still people die... Regulation is the only answer left..People are not going to the schools..Not everyone has access to them. I have said A LOT...I think you should be able to qualify for a PRO rating under the canopy you have now before you should downsize....If people want to make that a BSR..I think it would be great. But you still need a base line...And brother..Jump #'s is it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There was this kid...He used to love to pull low. A lot of the guys at the DZ talked to him....Finnaly one of the guy told him...That if he pulled low again, they were going to kick my ass....Opps I meant HIS ass. I liked to pull low...I didn't have a fucking clue how bad it was..I had 300 jumps and thought I knew it all. I met another young punk kid. He like to pull low. I told him it was stupid...He told me to sod off. I asked him if he had ever seen a body after a bounce. He said no....So I showed him some pictures of one. And I took him to see where the crater was. He looked sick....But started pulling higher Edit: to make pulling low past tense (I forgot the damn D) Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334