Ron

Well, right now there is nothing in place for them to check against. And to be honest it WOULD fit in...The new"D" is 500 jumps...so it would fit in really nice. No, it will prevent people from getting high wingloads with out experience or classes with proven performance... How can you not see that? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

2 cases come to mind. A guy with 1,000 jumps who is very current, and on a 4 way team. Had his cutaway accidently come out. He tracked away pulled his main, which left the second it was out. He fell the 2,000 feet to impact stable. Why? Well he did'nt have what most think of as a mal...It was not above him all screwed up. He threw his main..where was it? He was confused, and now dead. A guy with over 5,000 jumps, and several cutaways (including Tandem) had an AAD save him...Why? He waited for his RSL to pull FOR HIM after a cutaway... problem was...It was not hooked up. Everyone thinks they can handle it when the shit hits the fan....But some just don't...They freak out. I think you should have one until you have had a mal, and pulled both handles. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You ahve to have a current Flight Physical (Or HALO Physical from the military). They expire in 3 years. And if you have any changes in your status...they are invalid. Thats the short story....I don't want to get into the long one. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, but to protect them till they realize that they are not bounce proof...Yes. We already do it now. But we now have a new problem, and the old ways are not fixing them. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The problem is most new jumpers don't think they can fail. They don't have the EXPERIENCE to know that it can happen. They have never EXPERIENCED anything like it. Most jumpers in the 100-300 jump range think they are 10 feet tall and bounce proof...I did, and in fact I should have bounced at least once, and did smack the ground quite hard another time. After all they have jumped 300 TIMES...Geeze that seems like a lot...Until you get 500...Then 1,000...I bet there are a lot of guys that think my 2,900 is nothing. I have no problem with a guy that wants to do swoop landings. As long as he is willing to go to classes, and LISTEN to what people have to say to him. That is why I support Regulation WITH education...I know that education is the true answer...Now how do I get these people to understand they need it? The problem is that MOST don't know they don't know what they are doing. They are the "one". They are "skilled above their jump #'s". These are the ones that say..."Jump numbers are meaningless ways to tell skill." Fact is it is a very good way. Not 100% mind you, but nothing is. If I was planning a jump and a guy with 100 jumps wanted on and a guy with 500...9 out of 10 I would bet that they guy with 500 would be the better bet. Yes not always, but 9 out of 10 times it is the right choice. And never forget no amount of training replaces skills that are earned with experience...Training can help you learn faster, but you still need experience. Regulation will make them get training, or they will have to wait...and gain experience while they wait. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I say never. I do think that there comes a point that you can't make rules for everything, and that some people are just stupid and no amount of regulation will save them from themselves. But the time to quit "holding their hand" is when they have shown enough skill, respect,knowledge and experience to handle themselves safely...It is clear that people with less than 500 jumps don't know enough about canopy selection. Or have the skills and experiece to fly them if they get them. It is also clear that education, while the best answer, is not working. Luigi landed the VX46 already. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep.. I'll be ok with it then. At some point you have to stand back and say "fuck it". No one has been taken to the hospital and said "Well I knew it was just a matter of time till I screwed up" I figure by the time that most get 500 jumps they have been around long enough to make wise choices. If not...Then they will learn the hard way or die. Some guy with 100-200-300 jumps does not in my opinion have the knowledge to make these choices. The proof is in the fatality reports....No matter HOW current he is..In fact the less time he has in the sport, the less likely that he has seen the carnage caused by a botched hook. Honestly I think you should have seen at least one really bad hook, visit the guy in the hospital about 6 times, and have really good health insurance before you are allowed to fly a HP canopy.....But thats not gonna happen. The real question boils down to when are you off student status? I say never. I think that the ones above me should watch me...and I should watch out for all below me. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The only number I have to look at is to see who is getting hurt/killed and why. Who? Guys with less than 500 jumps. Why? Not enough skill or experience. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well you see the problem is not with Oren 1,500 jumps at I think a 1.5 wingload...Nor with me 2,900 jumps at a 1.7. The problem is with guys with under 500 jumps and these wingloads. If I saw a trend where guys with 2000 jumps were getting killed pulling low (we already have a rule), or getting killed while jumping drunk (again already a rule), guys getting killed doing chutless jumps (Again a rule already) or for that matter getting killed trying to land a wingsuit(I think there used to be a ban on ridged wing suits...because they were killing people)...I would say hey, lets do something about it. But this issue, and this thread is about guys with not enough experience geting killed on canopies that they let their egos pick. As to why I used Jump #'s in relation to experience...Well we already do that. As to why jump #'s from 1 to 500...Two reasons...From looking at the fatalities last year of people dying while trying to land cool (hook it) only one had more than 500 jumps. (and he was stoned out of his mind). My second reason is that 500 jumps is the new "D". As for the wingloads...Well the average guy that died hooking it had 300 jumps and a 1.5 wingload...A 1.5 wingload seems to be the most popular wingload, and is quickly in some circles being taken as the "norm". Being the norm does not make it safe...The laws of physics have not changed since the Stiletto came out, they are still as high performance as they were, but now we have higher performance canopies, so they are considered "LESS" than they were before. Education has improved, but so has the availability of these "less" high performance canopies. In 1995 a guy with 300 jumps would have a VERY hard time getting Stiletto. Now almost anyone can get one. Education has not kept pace with availability. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Simple answer....Don't let it get to you. You have trained all year for 10 jumps. Just tell yourself you have it. Realize you are not competing against anyone but yourself. You can not stop another team from scoring...You can only post the best score you can, and hope it is better than the other teams. At the Nats this year... In the plane I thought about the dive till 1,000 feet. I took a break, then at about 5 I started to think about the dive again two different ways. I said the sequence to myself over and over, and I imagined the moves as if I was watching them on camera. At 10,000 feet...Its done.. Nothing more will help, you have it or you don't..This sets it in your mind. As soon as the door opened round one...I told myself I am the most current I have ever been and to have fun. I was ready. Its done. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Read the replys below... Does Bill think that USPA or Elsinore for that matter should institute some WL restrictions so the next guy won't do the same thing??? Yes, he believes guidelines should be in place to help with decision making for the young jumpers. Or does he really, really think that he screwed up & has no one to blame but himself??? He takes responsibility for his choices and actions, but believes that he should have been counseled more in depth and educated on what he -should- buy. Does he have recollection of others saying he was down sizing too fast? No. 2 instructors, who he named, gave him the nod to buy this equipment, and he went with this. Why didn't he 'believe' the other people that told him this ahead of time? See above. What could have one of the 'advance' warning people have said to him to prevent him from down sizing so fast? See above So TWO instructors told him he would be fine. So peer preasure is not working... He thinks he didn't have enough information...And this was DURING the Elsinore "Bridging the Gap" weekend. So education is not working.... Do you have any proof to the contrary? This guy and all that have hooked in and lived all say "I thought I could handle it" They were wrong, just like the guys that die. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK..so? I can't stop people from shooting themselves in the head either. But I can TRY...I can listen to them when they have problems, I can not hand them my weapon to use even if they want it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I can't believe you said that... How obtuse to think that them getting hurt/killed just effects them. Im done with you Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Simple it has worked this far. Its called EXPERIENCE..I have almost 10 years and 3,000 jumps on wingloads from student to 2.8 to 1. And I have seen several 300 jump wonders die from letting their egos pick canopies. Then why did the USPA create a PRO rating? Because people don't know what they can do, and often find out AFTER they screw up. And with this regulation...he would not have been able to jump it even if he could buy it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its what low timers are using now... You see they think they have the SKILL set...But they die. Its called a typo. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Speed...Too many low timers are hooking it in. Reaction times...They are not hooking it in. If you have better ideas..By all means tell me. But don't just sit and pigeon hole my idea...Help make things better, don't just sit and bitch. Can you not see a problem with low timers getting canopies and killing themselves? How would you fix it? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok so make it jump #'s PLUS a test and a skill set (Which we are all saying we should have.) So it fits quite nicley in with the norm huh? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do you have a better plan? We already use raw jump #'s for several other permissions (CRW, Pull altitudes, Night jumps...ect) Its simple, and works... Nope, but HE would be safer if he had 400 jumps than if he had 200. The problem is not ME knowing my capabilities....It is with THEM NOT knowing theirs. And how are the going to know? They don't have the experience to know. Better to ask do I feel guilty if I don't do anything to reverse the trend that I see? If they smack in under a lower wingload..chances are they would have smacked in at a higher wingload as well. I am trying to make them safe for everyone. Even the ones that don't know they are in danger. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well how about this..... Would you say that more jumps are made every year than the last? The raw fatalities stay about the same. But there is one CLASS of fatalities that grows, and takes a larger and larger share of the whole. That class is people flying HP canopies into the ground. The reason is lack of knowledge, and skills. Knowledge can be taught, but without experience will not give you skill. The problem is people without the skills don't have experience to know they don't. They all think they are the "one" the person that is "gifted"... They are also the group that is being broken the most. Education would be great, but it is not/has not/will not work unless it is made manditory, and is a program that is the same quality at EVERY DZ. Now the USPA can't even get the ISP done at all the DZ's....See the problem with just education? Just doing nothing is not an option. Liability in the US is to great...I know of one guy that stiffed the hospital for 107,000.00 Who pays that? We do. Regulation will work...It will prevent the yahoo with 200 jumps from getting something that he does not know enough about. If he wants to go past this wingload, he can...He just has to take some time to do it, and PROVE he can handle it...Whats the problem with that? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

To quote the artical: OK, what the hell is this guy thinking? "I'll show you taking a tank down my street...Here take this rock!!!" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is what I don't get. An RSL I thought has very little chance of snagging. Anyone? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The only time I have heard of a downplane from a double out was with a racer, and the double RSL's. Most other sport rigs there is no chance of an RSL causing a downplane. At least none I can think of. Anyone care to share one? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I started a thread on this on another forum.... I look at it more like High School, College,and Pro. When you start out, you are the High School team. This I consider to be the Intermediate class. You are just learning the rules, and the moves. It kills me that people want to do Intermediate and have 200 jumps. Kind of against my idea of intermediate. Then you have a clue, and want to compete...Enter College..You know the rules, can play the game but are not a Pro. Advanced Class Pro Level...There are very few teams at this level. This is where you fight to be on the US team...Looking at last years nationals there were only six teams I consider to be at that level. Knights Gold: Full time skydivers/ 2 World Champs Airspeed Vertical: Full time skydivers/ 4 World Champs Majik: Full time skydivers Knights Black: Full time skydivers Airspeed Zulu. Full time skydivers / 3 World Champs Fluid. Healy was full time, and Trinko is a 2 time World Champ. Then you have your weekend teams...And to be honest that is the rest of the field down. Frost had to go Open due to 3 members having won the Advanced class. I think that Elsinore, Ranch Tribe and Untrained Eye did the right thing by taking the Pro's they had with them into Open. Funny thing is that Advanced was won by a weekend team with a 13.7...That would have put them on top of all these other teams except Frost. And Nemesis had beaten Frost before. But Frost, Nemesis, and the Beez had been around for a few years. I just found it funny that I could have taken Joey Jones, Garry Smith and Solly Williams to Advanced, but not Carlos Curti, Kurt Gaebel and Niklas Gummeson. So if they allow Player coach teams, then they should allow a guy with an Advanced medal to go with another guy with an Advanced medal...Or make the Player Coach teams go into Open. They would still have the same average, but no chance of taking a medal away from the best weekend team. Or just make it one class...But that wll not happen USPA wants to make it so everyone can get a medal...Even if they buy it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Looks like they are getting ready for her "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are not the average jumper.... And you have made more than one mistake...reserve pull before cutaway... I bet you never planned to smack the ground, or open your reserve before you cut away. I bet you will NEVER do that again. You have been very lucky...And yes you are young and don't get hurt as easy. But not everyone does 40 jumps a mth...I think PD told me that the average # of jumps per person per year was like 100-150. The fact is simple...Small canopy = smaller room for error. Some can handle it...Others get carted away, some to a hospital..others a morgue. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334