Ron

All good points Tony.... Question for you... If these people you see at 500-9,999 jumps took a canopy control class...Would it make them better? If some of these people were on bigger canopies...would it make them safer? If some of these people didn't downsize so fast...would they have learned more? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Lets not let this get into a "Big way Vs 4way" debate... Just like Freeflying, big ways and 4ways are fun for different reasons. Both can be hard, both can be fun. I personally plan on doing more big ways when I get old, and can't move as fast anymore. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The next size down for the canopy you are jumping.. If you have a Sabre 150, and want a Safire 2 149...Its really the same size right? But if you want a Sabre 135, or Samuri 136...well its a step down. A 120 or 119 would be two steps. This is where S&TA's come in...They could make these calls. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or maybe its experience? An 18 yo has been driving longer than a 16 yo. And experience tells you to cut your risk taking...or at least approach it from a better angle. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but to fly a HP single engine all I needed was an endorsment...not another license. Thats how I see the BSR I wrote...You could get signed off for a higher WL. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Barn Storming is not dead..I had a friend of mine loop right into the ground by his house while his friends and wife watched about 3 years ago. But a loop at 2000 feet takes the same amount of skill as a loop at 500 feet....just less cost for a screw up. My old Acro instructor Billy Whitehurst use to say "Fly 3 mistakes high". Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I like the original "Germain Plan" for WL better. It allows for a faster progression, but still with limits. However, I like the rest of it. I think that the test could be getting a PRO rating before being allowed to downsize ONE size. A class could allow you to downsize ONE size. Or the S&TA could allow you to downsize ONE size. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There is a AGL limit...I think its 1500 feet, but I have not done any Acro in 7 years. You are not allowed to do it lower even if you are over a large bit of your own land, and there is not even a cow there. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not in TN.... You could get a

It will make education the only way to fly a high WL before you have more experience. Education is THE answer...the problem is that the group that needs it...Does not think they do. This would make them take the education...or have to wait, and learn slower. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have said make them qualify for the PRO...Not everyone like this one, but it is already written, demonstrates the ability to fly the canopy, is easy to judge, and is harder than most think. Add in a canopy class and I think its the route to go. In my little world (where my CAPS GET STUCK) I think you should not downsize until you can qualify for the PRO under the canopy that you have now. I've done it all the way to an 88. Seperate...And the S&TA, or Instructors who are qualified to fly at a higher wingload than being tested for. (I don't want an Instructor that has always flown a 1.1 straight in to try and teach something they don't do.) The sign off could be a log book endorsement just like a pilot gets for tailwheel or a high performance airplane. For what it worth...I would be fine if it was a recomendation. I would rather have it a BSR....with the ability to test out...It I think would be better, and with the test out part if you can put your money where your mouth is...You can still do what you want. Notice I didn't say it was not a good idea...But you would have to make them watch it insted of the "Pond Swooping Natls"...And there are canopy videos out already. "Fly like a Pro." And the target audience is not wacthing these things..The BSR would MAKE them...not just be an option. If everyine took education this would not be a problem, the problem is the ones most likely to get killed don't think they need this. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Read what I wrote Because you can't learn to fly a canopy by watching a video, or reading a book. You can't...If you had not DONE the jumps to look at, or have a referance from having DONE that type of jump... The video would be usless. This is like saying I could video AFF 1-7 and sell it on the net as a "Skydiving program" And these people whould not need to go to the DZ and sit in a harness, practice pulls, practice exits...ect....They could just hop in a rig and jump on a plane. This is why to get a pilots license you have book work AND 40 hrs of flight time. Without the prior knowledge, or practical exercises...The video would be nothing. And you would have to make the subject group watch it...They don't listen now...Is a cool video gonna help? There are plenty of videos out there already. "Fly Like A Pro"....But they don't watch them...They watch "Pond Swooping Nationals" And to be honest you can learn a lot for watching the Pond Swooping Natl's. But, people wacth them and they still hook it in. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How many have you lost to hook turns? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And have you been involved with a fatality yet? It effects more than just the guy who died. His family The DZ His friends The City The Sport Skydivers every where. Insurance companies Lawsuits. Gear companies. I know of a few guys that had to go to a shrink after watching a guy hit....Its not pretty. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes it is. There was a problem, and if was helped by a new BSR. Then why do you keep saying it was not done correctly? No matter HOW it got put in it DID do good. Well you don't have any proof it will not. You don't have a better plan. And I don't care if I piss someone off..You should know that by now. I am not after popularity..I am after safety. Please PROVE it will not work. Or COME UP with a BETTER plan. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because you can't learn to fly a canopy by watching a video, or reading a book. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And what part of YOU CAN TEST OUT IF YOU CAN PROVE YOU HAVE THE SKILL TO HANDLE IT don't you get? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't most states have a seperate permit for motorcycles? Why? Because people were getting killed on them. And the tandem argument is very good....Why don't you guys bitch about the 500 jump and 3 years for them? Or the 6 hrs of freefall for AFF? Or the 500 jumps to get a PRO? Or the D to do larger demo's Or Pull altitudes? After all its your body right? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Same thing Bytch said...plus When the Gov raised the drinking age..they grandfathered in those that already had the privileges....It would be wrong to make someone buy a new canopy just because...Are they at risk still? Yes, but the guy right under them is not. Sure cool!!! I can already qualify with any canopy I own for a PRO...I have already done it. This is my personal downsizing "test". Can I swoop where I want, carve it, and stop where I want? If not then I don't need another canopy. Might be why I have 2,000 jumps on a Stiletto 107 at 1.7. And just started with a Velocity 96. And I never said that jump #'s were the only sure way to rate someone....But its the best we have, and we use it now. And the mr 300 jumps could always PROVE he can handle something smaller with a class and a TEST. Then can have it..Cool huh? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What other criteria about pull altitudes? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The end result of all of this is simple... Oren with 1400 jumps, me with 2,900, and you with 4,000 are not the ones getting killed. It is the guys with 100-500 jumps. If you, me , and Oren were dying...Then I would be trying to regulate US...But we are not, they are. I don't buy into the "you are an adult...do what you want" group. To be a member of ANYTHING means that you sacrifice some personal freedoms for the good of the group. And to be honest I can't think of a single orginization that is involved in ANY activity that does not have some basic saftey rules. These rules were put in place to PROTECT the group. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know, I was answering him. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

2,900 1.7 & 1.8 (I had a 2.6, but I found that it was to hard to fly that on EVERY jump, at EVERY DZ.) 30 years old....I have a Dog. Number of dead people I have seen on a DZ...4 Number of people I have Known that died...On second thought, I don't want to count these up. A LOT. Number of people I have seen fucked up on a DZ...Way to many to count. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This post is just proof you have not been around long enough. BSR's are written not because ONE guy died...They are written when a TREND is seen. Look around...learn some more...Do you not see a trend of guys getting wings they can't handle... Do you know the difference between a high wingload, and a safe wingload? (I am not trying to slam you here, but you have only 88 jumps). Do you understand the issue? It is not about makinga rule to make a rule...It is to stop a trend. Say what you want the TREND is there. Education is not working to fix it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How about you qouting the whole thing...ya know the part where he is going to take classes? You are not making your point at all. Guys like Oren are not getting killed. If they were, then people would be trying to regulate them. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334