Ron

When jumping a new canopy for the first time jump it at the same WL that you have now...That way you can compare the way the canopy flies compared to your current referance. It is an old trick of canopy manufactures to try to get you to jump a smaller canopy than you currently jump...Of course it is gonna be more fun!..Its smaller/faster. Then you think that canopy is the best in the world. Find the WING you want first, then get the correct size. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You told me...You have bought that house now what 3 times? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bill I could have sworn that Booths law #1 was: Insted of getting married, just find a women you hate and buy her a house....In fact buy her your own house. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Simple not everyone will try to jump a higher WL than BSR would state. So the S&TA would only have to waiver the ones that want to go past it...Not EVERY jumper. The recomendations are both fair, and safe. Yes, there are not fair to everyone..which is why there is a way to test out....And they are not safe for everyine either, but as some people have said...stupid people sometimes just have to die to learn. I would rather they just get hurt, or get hurt less. A lower WL with the same stupid mistake is much more survivable than a high WL. But there are guys out there with this same problem and others...And they are downsizing anyway just cause they can. Its better than just letting them do it whenever they want. I asked Bill Booth about a WL BSR... He wrote: I respect this guy a lot...He sees then need for rules. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bill, Have you read any of the other threads on WL restricions for low time jumpers? If so, what is your take on it? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It would be almost impossible to write a program to do this. Also it would be almost impossible to look at every jumper at every DZ in the US and treat them all as individuals. There is not enough money in it to make it like the AFF program where you get (at some DZ's) close supervision. Remember S&TA's don't get paid and put up with A LOT of grief. If you can show me a *Better* and *Workable* plan please do so. Like it or not while jump numbers don't equal skill, they do equal experience. And I use the fact I have jumped canopies from a T-10 to a xbraced 69. Done test jumps for several different canopy companies. I have done 16 way CRW diamonds, was on a 4way rotation team. Have a PRO rating and jumped into stadiums at night in the middle of a city. I have called off demos when I was ordered to do them (Army) but they were unsafe. And have over 2,000 hook turns as "evidence of your authority on this matter" not raw jump #'s. and under the proposed BSR they CAN progress faster..But ONLY if they can PROVE they can do it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True..but I would say that a guy with 10,000 jumps knows more than me. And I would listen to him. So why won't a guy with 200-300 jumps listen to a guy with 3,000? This is the real issue. And you are not the guy I am worried about. It's they guy that listens to his buddies when they tell him to downsize or worse they guy that wants to do it even against everyones warnings. Again you are not the one I am worried about. And with this BSR, he can either: A) get the education and prove he can handle it. B) wait till he has more experience. Yes, they will be better. They will either have to take a class to fly what they want, or they will have to wait and get more experience before they can do what they want. How about we protect them (and us) AND make them better canopy pilots? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1st report should be as soon as possible. Facts should be who, what, where. Then the remander of info should be put out as soon as it is complete. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am running with it..I started this whole BSR WL thing. But there are people out there that think that without EVERY piece of info, the data pool is screwed. I know they are wrong, but some people just look for excuses to do what they want... I just responded to this: Which show that some people don't listen. This guy has less than 200 jumps, and will not listen to people with 1,000's that have been in the sport for several years...In some cases here decades. But if people DID listen to what the more experienced jumpers told them...This whole issue would not exist. They would not try to get the 97 with 100 jumps. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We have done this before the Pull minumums were not looked at to the nth degree...It does not take a genius to see the issue. WL regulation will work. Why is it that people with a few hundered jumps don't listen to the people with a few thousand?...Oh yeah, if they did listen then a large number of 300 jump people would not get to fly the cool pocket sized canopy they want. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I track trends for FedEx since I do this for a living trends just start to jump out at me when I look at data. I only point out the trends because a lot of people claim that "flying by the seat of your pants" is wrong to do. The fact is, as you pointed out, that there is not enough raw data to be 100% about any trends....However if you wait till all the info is in, you have wasted a lot of time, sometimes forever. Sometimes you have to take what data you have and run with it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What wingload and # of jumps did you tib/fib? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He can jump that loading safely...as can anyone. With the proper training, and a little luck. Education can make you from becoming a statistic. But with out the education...you much larger chance of becoming a human sized crater at that WL/experience level. Besides its not this guy that is the issue...He knows he needs to learn more. It is the guy that thinks he has it down already, and doens not listen to anyone. This guy needs the classes, but will not take them becasue they are not cool...The only thing we can do is not let him play with the high WL till he proves he can handle it. Make him take a class, test out, or wait. And this guy from SA said it..."There are no classes here". And there are I am sure 50% of the US DZ's don't have canopy classes either. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A SIM entry will not reach the ones who need it...I went 500 jumps with out ever even looking at the SIM...Why? I didn't need it, I was a good skydiver and did not need to read "safety stuff". I almost bounced on jump 270...I did video for the first time...I videoed a friends 300th jump while he videoed a Tandem...Long story short I got a main at 500 feet.... Then I hooked it in on jump #380 with a 1.4 WL in 1996..My buddies were trying to have me get a 1.8 WL...because it was cool. PD called me back then and refused to sell me the 97...With great reluctance they said they would allow me to get a 107...After thinking about it I got the 120...And because of this...I can still walk. And yet I still did not look into the SIM. But I knew the BSR's..I had to abide by them. a SIM entry will have no teeth to it. It will not keep a guy from gettinga 1.5 WL at 250 jumps...It will just tell him it is a bad idea...just like all the other people that he does not listen to on the DZ. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is my point exactly....since the creation of HP canopies they are getting easier for low timers to get...That is why there were less 300 jump wonders hooking in than now.. Now they can get the canopies...then it was much harder. Thanks for pointing out the trend. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, I would say an injury is something that required medical attn....Putting ice on it is not medical attn. Say hospital trips only. As for the DZ not wanting that info out there...It really is not their call...I live on the DZ in Zhills. I see the accidents. It would not be "official" and we could have no names, and only use location to keep from putting the same accident in more than once. It is really academic for me since I would have no idea how to do this. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Is anyone here smart enough to create an accident reporting website? (I don't have a clue how to do this...I am an idea man). Not fatalities...but accidents. It could simply have: Age: Sex: Time in sport: Number of jumps: Type of accident: Panic turn/flare problem/Landing a Minnor Mal/ Hook ect.... WL: Location: You all get the picture this would make it so insted of waiting for the USPA...We could start to track these things with more detail. It would provide the Data so many people ask for...and it could be used to teach... Thoughts? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep..Or my personal favorite "You are just mad because I can do things you could not do a X number of jumps...cause I got mad skill baby...Yeah!!". yes, you use *experience* to make this call...The problem is that the people this is targeted at don't have the experience,or the knowledge to make that call...They only think they do. This is the major issue with education without Regulation. They simply won't go to the classes. They don't think they need it. I agree. But you can keep them from getting the high WL...As for how do you enforce it. Well, you ground them. But the cool thing is the new students won't bitch about it since they didn't know other wise. It will be like how the new jumpers in a few years will think that it is normal that they can only do solos or jump with an Instructor or Coach till they get a license. That my friend is a damn good question. I've told you....its because you are old. Ron For those that don't know Tony has over 10,000 jumps, and I respect him greatly...He is one of the people I listen to whenever he talks. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'll bite. So are pull altitudes...How do you know I was above 2,000 feet? How about if I pull low? Its against the BSR's. And not all parachutes open the same....Do I need a min pull altitude for every make of canopy at each license level? S&TA: "Lets see, you have a "D" with a Sabre...You can pull at 1,800 feet"..."Now you have a "D" with a Stiletto....You have to pull at 2,400 feet". Same thing right? Yes, it does work if *they do it*....We have read several times that people don't think they need it, or that they don't take it because it is uncool. It is due to the people that don't think they need it that a BSR would work, where a SIM entry will not. The guys that don't think they need the classes are not very likley to be reading the SIM. Not last year...And as the canopies become more available to the less experienced jumpes...they will get them, and the incidents of low timers with high WL will increase...The trend over the last few years show that more of the deaths are low timers every year over the prior year. So because it would be hard...It is best not to try? I understand what you are saying. However, the people that need to have this info...will not go looking for it in the SIM. If they knew that they didn't know, they would take the class or get coaching. Case in point..I never looked into the SIM till I started teaching A BSR would give them more than a guide they can blow off..(Which is all a SIM addition would be). A BSR would make them follow it, or they could prove they have "The right stuff" and pass a test, or so impress the S&TA that they can carry on. If a SIM addition is the best we can do...well I personally think it is way short of anything that we are trying to do...And it shows the USPA has serious issues about being more than a cool magazine, and having a bunch of guys to lobby in DC, and build a museum that most don't even want. Having said that if it truely is the best the USPA can do....I can't MAKE anything else happen. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or it could be that you have not done yours before you try to shoot my work to pieces. But since I don't have a PHD...I probley don't know anything right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And this is the major factor in why jump #'s is a good way to judge experience. And this is SKILL, not experience. If they jump 96's all day, yes they will swoop better than you if you have never jumped one. Jump #'s CAN give you skill, but they might not. Jump #'s WILL give you experience. Again experience tells you that even with WAY more jumps than some of them that you can't do what they do. This is some of the experience that we are trying to let these new guys get before they get a tiny little canopy. Tony, what is your take on this? Is there a problem with people getting highly loaded canopies before they have the knowledge,skill, and experience to handle them? What would you suggest as a solution if you see a problem? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im not an S&TA, but I would say... The Tri 160, or the Spectre 150 would be one size down. This is where S&TA's earn their beer. Judgment calls. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you REALLY want to get into this you have to ask "who makes more jumps? The more people with 300 jumps, or the less that have over 300 jumps but make 300-500 a year." So Dr. what % of jumps is done by each group? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good work. Did you see the trend of Jump #'s going down, and WL going up in the last years? This is the trend I would like to stop,slow. A guy with 300 jumps 5 years ago would have a very hard time getting a 1.5 loaded canopy. It is MUCH simpler now...And since they can get them, they are. Unless we do something, this trend will continue. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well the thing is out of the people that died last year under a good canopy...over 80% had less than 500 jumps. Of the people that died last year that were trying to swoop...Only one had more than 500 jumps. Of this group it was a 1.5 WL and around 300umps AVG. I agree there are people out there with 1000's of jumps that still don't do it right. But they are not killing themselves. I think that education is the answer, but with out some regulation most will not get the knowledge. And then there is the issue that the same level of knowledge is not available everywhere. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334