Ron

Well my question is how can a program that stress education. Allows for people who actaully HAVE the skills to test out. And regulates those that don't have the skills, and are unwilling to get the education for jumping whaat ever they want? How is that a bad thing? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This has been around since the first parachute had toggles. First it was regular rounds vs modified. Then Round vs steerable. Then round vs square. Then 7 cell vs 9 cell. Then F-111 vs ZP...Then square vs Eliptical vs Xbraced. The problem is that more jumpers are not listening anymore, and these new hot canopies are available to a guy with 200 jumps. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't know, but I do know that the people who are getting killed under high WL have less jumps year over year. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why not the PRO? I can do it under my 107 and 96? If they can't do it, they may not be able to really fly that canopy. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your words...not mine. Almost everyone thinks they are the special, gifted one. If you were that good, and I don't know you might be. You would have no problem getting someone to sign you off. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope my point is that even the BEST..And I do think that these were the best...still die. Most people think they are not going to get hurt/killed...If it can happen to the BEST...It can happen to anyone. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not everyone is you.... You might be a very skilled person in all that you do. But the TREND is there that people with no experience are getting canopies and killing themselves on them. And under the programs that have been pitched, you could test out of the BSR. What is the harm in that? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, and maybe you were not as gifted as you thought. I don't know..You may be Tommy Piras reincarnate...opps he's dead. You may be Patrick..oh dead again. Loftis? Damn. Harris?...Damn. Not trying to slam you....But even Rickster has hooked it in. Why were you different? And if you realy were that good, you could have found someone to sign you off. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope.... Big ways. They were only done by the already very skilled. When they were being done everyday, and the lower timers started getting on them...Then the accidents started to happen. As for boards....well most of the best are dead, or don't jump them anymore...you do the math on that one. Here is some info for you. Back in 1993? The Stiletto came out. You had to sign a waver to get one...If you wanted a 107 or 97 you had another waiver to sign. If you had 300 jumps you could not even get a 1.1 loaded one...They wanted 500-1000 jumps before you could get one. The Batwing PA wanted you to have 500 jumps to get one. Well people didn't know how these things flew, and people tried new and cool things...And several died. Now these people were the ones with 1,000's of jumps...Why? Becasue they were the only ones that could get them, and the education was not good enough. Now, as time passed the Stilettos and cobalts crossfires..ect became MUCH more common the waivers disapeared and in relation to the new Xbraced canopies they were not *AS* high performance. So many people stoped thinking of the Stiletto as HIGH PERFORMANCE (I mean they are nothing next to a Velocity right?) So, people with 800 or so jumps could get them *at light loadings*...Well, these guys started to get hurt/killed. Now guys with 300 jumps can get them, and even on guy CobaltDan says that a Cobalt can be used with students. Now guys with 300 jumps start loading them, and guys with 100 jumps try to get Stiletto 97's (well its not a high performance canopy right? I mean its not like he tried to get a Velocity) So the canopies are becoming more available to the less experienced jumpers. Its not new that these are the people that are going to die at a faster rate...The first of each group to get these canopies are the ones that die. Now it says a lot about education that a guy with 300 jumps does not die every day today...The blood of the people before him has taught a little. Now...Have the physics of the world changed since 93? Have the Stilettos changed since 93 (Yeah I know some people think they have..but lets stay basic here)? No, and no. So the Stiletto is still as HP as it was when it came out...Only our way of looking at them has changed...And only for those that were not around to see them when they came out...I have had guys with 100 jumps tell me that a Stiletto is not a HP canopy. The same thing is happening with FF....Years ago I could not get on a FF jump with 200 jumps...Becasue I did not have enough experience...Now guys with 50 jumps are jumping FF together...And the accident rates are rising there as well. Same thing with big ways...as more people with less experience do more...the fatalities wil increase for that group... It has been said that the #1 killer of skydivers is skydivers doing new things. As it is to get on Big ways you still need to prove yourself....You don't go from having 300 jumps the largest being a 4way to a 100 way...You have to do 20ways,40ways,60ways...ect. Why is that not the case with canopies? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If lots of jumpers with a low number of jumps are getting killed on big ways...yep. If low jump number people are getting killed on FF jumps...yep. Basicly if almost half of the fatalities are due to ONE thing...and most of the people that die doing it have X number and below jumps...While the people with X number and above seem to be fine..Then yes. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then maybe you were not as far ahead of the learning curve as you thought? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You really cant see an issue? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

and what is the cost of doing the wrong thing if it makes people safer? Do you think that making people who want to fly high WL take a clas and prove they can do it is a bad thing? Do you think that keeping people that don't take the class, and are not able to prove they can handle it is unsafe? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK DR Kallend, We will take this one small step at a time. Do you not see how over the last few years that the number of accidents under open canopies flying into the ground have transfered from the people with 1,000's of jumps since 1995 (who are the first ones to get the hot new canopies) to people with under 500 jumps last year? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In a purely numbers game yes. But I know it is not the case. This was a reply to Zen...he likes number games. I think that the fact the the number of accidents are growing in only one section of the experience range tells me that since newer jumpers can get these wings..and without the knowledge/experience that is needed, they are getting hurt/killed more than a group with more experience that in theory gets exposed to more riskes due to more events. And this is the point that to me is very clear. However some think we need to have the number of success stories to formulate a better plan. I don't think so. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't think that could even happen... The attachment points on the canopy are on the bottom. It would only work if you had only outside attachment points. But IF you could do it. I don't think it would stay inflated. There would be no tension on the lines. But this is way out of my area now. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't let anyone on the plane unless they are geared up. I have climbed out with my chest strap undone. One of three times I should have died. If the person is one of those "cool" boys that like to have their gear lose...Ya know leg straps on, but not tight at all. I ask them one simple question: "If the pilot yells back for us to get out of the plane at 1,000 feet and you are between me and the door...Do you think I am going to wait for you to put your gear on? Or do you think I am going to go around/by/or push you out in front of me geared up or not?" ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

H How about the simple fact that the number of fatalities of a certain type in an experience group is growing, while the number of the same type of fatalities is much less in other experience groups? And I would be willing to bet (WAG estimate) that the number of jumps made by people with more than 500 jumps is greater than the number of people below 500 jumps. So it would think that more JUMPS are made by people with more than 500 jumps, even though there are more jumpers with under 500 jumps. This would make me think that the number of possible Accidents *should* be higher for people with more than 500 jumps. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you can keep tension on the lines and maintain the air flowing at close to the same angle and speed into the nose...yes. If not...Well gravity will cause you will fall into your canopy and it will wrap around you like a bodybag. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but why would they do it if they don't have to? They are not doing it now. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And we have said before that if we reduce the # of people hooking it in that the number of people trying to do something like land a Wingsuit will even out the fatalities. True. I agree. And if they try to start landing wingsiuts then we will lok at that problem when it kills as many as this. And besides the wingloading on the wingsuit would be VERY high and you would need atleast 500 jumps to try it. So you think that means we should not do anything? I think that is a poor choice of action picked by the lazy and uncaring. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope. Many times I land before the group in front of me. (At Zhills the FF go first...another topic) And they break and pull higher than RW groups. At some point I pass by the altitude they are at under canopy. And what about the big ways with people with big canopies? Sometimes these people ride in brakes (Its their right). Even if I ride in brakes my ST107 of V96 will not hang with them. So I have to pass them. So while it would be a good idea to have exit order transfer to landing order...With the large differences in canopies, and the differences in pull altitudes...It will not work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How about the simple fact that the number of fatalities of a certain type in an experience group is growing, while the number of the same type of fatalities is much less in other experience groups? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And suddenly we are going to ground them for not listening...when we don't now? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Quade, Good points. So he is watched more before he gets to jump there, or gets a waiver. The real liability is IF he had a waiver. You are correct that if the DZ did a better job of watching them, and grounding them for stupid things the problem would not exist. The thing is they are not doing that now. I doubt they will tomorrow unless it was a BSR. We all see people under canopies that they have no buisness flying now right? Well, how did they get them? Why have they not been kicked of the DZ? So the problem is not new...and the old ways of looking at it are not working.... We know the problem adding it as a recommendation is that people are not listening to recomendations now when it comes to high performance wings at high loads with little experience. You mention HALO, and night jumps...These are both special jumps. There are very few people that have 200 night or HALO jumps (military excluded). A HP canopy is part of a *normal* skydive. So why look at the SIM for advice on it...Bubba did just fine with a 1.7 at 200 jumps, and he is stupid...I am much more skilled/smart/better/faster/younger/better looking/got a better car than him...ect. So it would not apply to me. It is a recomendation for the people with out my mad skills. If it is not a BSR MOST will not even look at it. As for the DZO or S&TA using it to talk to him...well we already know that a high WL with little experience is a bad thing...Why are they not talking/stoping/grounding them now? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334