Ron

No people who rely on them are rediculous. If someone will not jump without one, then they are placing way to much fait on it. Again, I like them, and I have one....But I also have 600 jumps without one and that started on jump #13. So I know I can save myself....I have an AAD incase I screw up and should have died, but I don't rely on them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And how many of these were "knocked out"? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Read the whole post. I also said Yes you should look at what happend. Why is it you were the only one to have to be saved? Did you do something that casued you to hit the tail? Why did the rest not hit it? At anytime you have a significant event you need to look at what happend. I had a bad car accident and I started wearing my seat belt like its a religion. Your case is on of the FEW saves that are a case of being knocked out. Most are just acts of stupidity, not stopping a skydive. But even in your case there are things that you could have done to prevent it from being needed. Do you not see that? Im glad you had the cool toy, I would be happier if you used your mind and never got into a situation that you needed it. And yes, you do need to relook your involvment in this sport....You should be dead. Like I said, I'm glad you are not, but you are on what we used to call "bonus days". That does not mean you should quit....But you really should look at you and the sport. Glad that the 1200 investment paid off, but it could have not worked. Like I said...relook at the sport. I never said quit. Skydive like you don't have an RSL or AAD, and you will live longer. Ron Edit to add: relying on the damn thing is a WORSE way to look at a saftey devive "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your arms should be in front of you, your elbows should be bent around 120 degrees, and your elbows will be in front of your shoulders. It is not a stable position...Thats what makes it fast. A Cessna 172 is stable, a Pitts Special is not. It is the instability that makes it easy to move fast, but you have to take an active roll in FLYING stable....It does not just happen. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I push down with my arms against the air. If you don't you will pitch forward and your chest will be flat. This is what happens if you try to fly in the boxman. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bill gave a good exanple of the Mantis... Here is what I teach. Get a piece of paper and a pen....I'll wait. Now lie on your stomach on the floor. Bend your lower legs 90 degress to the floor. (With booties...w/o they will be extended a little bit) Its a little windy so you need to hold the paper with both hands. Now write a letter to your Mom...You really should do this more anyway. Notice that your hands are down and in front of your face? thats where they need to be for grips. And notice that you are supporting your upper body with your arms down? That will bring your head up and let you see more, and it cups the air so you can move it better. And your legs are level with the horizon...This allows them to be more effective. Now finish the letter and dispatch it quick...Your Mom misses you. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well you actually had a reserve ride....You will still owe beer for the first cutaway main. As for the handles...Do you use both hands on the cutaway then reserve? Or do you put your right hand on cutaway handle and your left hand on the reserve? If you do the both on cutaway, then both and reserve...don't bother trying to keep them. You have more than enough going on, don't mess with sucess. If you do the r hand cutaway, l hand reserve...When you practice you procedures from now on just pull and hold them, don't throw...And then when you have another mal, don't worry about it... Handles are not worth your life. If you keep them great...If you lose them who cares? You are alive. Congrats, and you still owe beer. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Wrong you still owe beer...Its a first. I had to buy beer when I had my first skydiving girl friend...Oh wait I DID jump her. But I still say you owe beer. Sorry dude. Hows this for trusting a student...My 13 jump was on my own gear and I didn't have an AAD or an RSL. They had them in student rigs, but they let me jump my rig. And how about all of those skydivers that learned when they did't even have RSL's and AAD's? Thats trust. Oh, and REALLY roll that nose! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe the USPA should ditch the museum that no one seems to want and work on getting insurance? Why have a museum for the USPA when the USPA will disapear if the insurance is no longer offered? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't know if this is the same story...It was 1996 I think in MS. at a Cessna DZ. There was an observer that turned the fuel selector valve off around 1,500 feet. The pilot didn't check that first, but insted told the jumpers to get out. The first jumper went out on his main and had a LOW opening. The pilot (Who is a jumper and rigger) told my buddy to go on his reserve. (I think he should have been doing his engine failure procedures....by thats just my opinion, and I was not there. However I a pilot). My buddy had around 500 jumps he climbed out poised and pulled his cutaway handle.....He relalised that he was still in freefall and threw his main (Which he just cutaway). He hit some trees while the RSL was opening his reserve. He never made it to the ground getting caught in the trees. A gold watch he used to wear all the time was imbedded into his wrist from impact with a tree limb. A CYPRES does not arm until you climb past 1,500 feet. If you go out before it arms it will never fire. This friends death is how I learned about that issue. Don't know if this is the same story Bill is talking about, or if it is another one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep reference this thread even. A large number of people have taken up freeflying. I honestly think that people should have a hundred or so jumps of regular RW to delevlop the life saving part of the sport before they start FF....When I bring this up to guy with less than 100 jumps I get "It's OK I have a CYPRES" all the time. And because they don't know better and its always been there, they rely on them. "Its OK I have a CYPRES". Nothing is wrong with having your ass saved...But I hope each of these people had a reality check, and relooked their participation in this sport...But I have seen people have a CYPRES fire and think nothing of it..."Its why I bought it, to save my ass. I got it put back in my rig leave me alone I'm a safe jumper". A safe jumper that had an AAD save them? I don't get that do you? All I have ever said is that if you have a CYPRES fire you need to sit the fuck down and have a serious look at your life, and how you fucked up so bad that you needed a neat toy to save your ass. I see WAY to many people blow off a CYPRES fire using this logic And they don't take it as serious. They treat it like since they bought a CYPRES they are safe skydivers. I don't agree. If you have a CYPRES fire you fucked up bad....And you need to really look at why, not just blow it off like many do now. Bill was this low non-CYPRES fire in MS? If so I knew him....If not I know of another one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When I have a free weekend I am planning on taking some people to a DZ that has a cessna and will let me teach them to spot. You got such a place? Then I'll get the first round. Amen!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is the line of reasoning that I call BS on. With the E procedures you have to do something....A cypres is passive. And if you have one fre you should really look at your involvment in this sport...But you of the "Cypres generation" don't see it that way....And I see that as a problem. And what about people that need a cypres to jump....Does that not fit in your pushing it theory? I mean if they didn't have one they would not jump right? So if they have to have one to jump, then they are pushing the limits of what they see as saftey right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope....I have been told that people get them so they will live if they get knocked out....But look at the saves. Only a VERY SMALL % of saves were people knocked out. Most are standard fuckups. And I have had peole tel me flat out that they need it to feel safe and will not jump without one....I knoe one lady that has been saved twice. So if you look at the saves you will see that you have amuch greater chance of being saved due to stupidity than being knocked out. Listen "I have a CYPRES incase I do some increadbly stupid act and I have to have a cool toy save my ass because I was to stupid to do it myself". I don't think I will get knocked out. There is a chance I will be low as hell (Been there, saved myself). Most people SAY that they get a cypres to prevent dying from being knocked out....But very few people have been knocked out compared to the stupid saves. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not the same....I have been in car accidents where I didn't have an airbag. I'm still here. Not many people who scream past 700 feet live. Facts are facts....If you are SAVED by a CYPRES, you should look into other sports. Same for if you feel you NEED it. Hell I have and use a cypres. I also have 600-700 jumps without one. And I don't feel I NEED one. I am a very direct guy. This sport is not for everyone. It should not be for everyone. If you think you NEED a cypres...you need to relook at this sport. But this is a free country and if someone relys on the damn thing I can't do anything about it. But its not smart. But people do it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep my bad sorry. But I DO know people who wil not jump without one....That is not the kind of person I want in freefall with me. "IM safe, I have a CYPRES. I can dive harder I have a CYPRES". And if I had a DZ and you had one fire....You would not be jumping there again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And while I am glad you are able to jump (When the wife lets you) I have to ask..What happens if you have a CYPRES save? Do you just replace the thing and keep jumping? Or do you realize that you are dead, and were saved by no act of your own and go play golf? The answer for most people today is replace it and ingonre the fact they are dead.....This is a dangerous and foolish way to think. But since the cypres came out it has become very mainstream way of thinking...And I don't think it is for the better. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, but notice that 4 people said they would not jump without one...I personally think that show dependence on this device....And they might need to think about this sport a little more. I also know of at least one person that has had TWO CYPRES fires.....This person was not knocked out, just falt out screwed up twice...This person should take up golf. But when she was asked about this recuring problem she got pissy and said "I know what I am doing...I am safe thats why I bought a CYPRES". Wrong way to think about it... A CYPRES is a great device, but if you rely on it for a second....You are not cutout for this sport. Skydiving is not for everyone...and it should not be for everyone. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am sure that atleast your Mom thinks you are worth it.... And this is a good example of a good use. However.....How many times have you been told not to jump up on an exit with a low wing A/C at high speed? So it was very preventable. And most CYPRES "Saves" are people just flat out fucking up and going low. There are a handful of real saves....This story is one of them. But it was preventable starting with the exit. Don't you agree? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't have the cost of the Cypress 2 worked out yet. But it costs a bit more, but the maintenance is a bit less. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, but be honest....Which do you think is most likley to happen? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My 13th jump was without an AAD (Not allowed according to the USPA but no one really cared). I did around 600 without one, and only got one due to a killer deal that a buddy of mine got me. You are much more likey to have it save you becasue you screw up and go low than being knocked out...You can check the CYPRES website for more info on the "saves". I have one incase I do something stupid that should have killed me. However I will jump without one, and I personally feel that if you think you NEED one...You should look into another sport. That being said if you can get one, I would recomend it. However, if it saves your life maybe you should get into another sport. They cost around 1200 new, and last 12 years (1,200.00) . They batteries every 2 years or 500 jumps Batteries cost around 100.00..(6 X 100= 600.00). And they need a 4 year check every 4 years. Around 200.00. (3 X 200 = 600.00) So: Unit: 1,200 Batteries : 600.00 4 year checks: 600.00 =2,400.00 2,400/12= 200.00 a year. Cheap insurance against stupidity if ya ask me. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1.A large number of the best in the world are dead. 2.A large number of the best in the world saw the other best in the worlds die and thought "Maybe thats not such a good idea?" 3.XGames canceled the skysurf....It was a very small segment of the sport anyway, and with the 3 things listed above...It does not attract the same following it did. You are adding a board that its only reasons to be there are to make you look cool, and try to kill you. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was told 20-25...but since 28 is more..I'll go with that one

Why does experience matter for training? I do have a higher probability of doing it correctly since I have done it 6 times, and been training it longer. But the theory is the issue here. I have seen many people with several hundered jumps to 1,000 jumps pull in the wrong order...I have also seen people tug on parts of the harness to impact and do nothing till impact or CYPRES fire.....The main issue here is that most of these people never had a mal before. One guy did have a mal before, but he was on a Velocity with 400-500 jumps and he just freaked out and pulled in the wrong order. He landed fine, and now teaches AFF. In "Ron's ideal training plan" a cutaway would be required for your 100th jump. No RSL, but with an AAD. I think the hands on both handles pull is safer since you have the reserve handle in your hand when you cutaway...If it is in your hand it can't shift away from you and lose it. I think almost nobody trains mals enough..It seems that you train them like hell when you have 0-150/200 jumps, then it becomes less of a focus....Until you have a mal, then you train it every jump. This debate is as old as the RSL Yes/No, Pud vs Throwout debates...You can find people that are alive because they had a hard pull and had to use both hands, and I can find people that survived because they used the hands on both handles method. Like I said, I don't care what method you use since they both work. I do want you to be able to explain why you do the one you do. But that reason I gave is for all experience levels... Skydive like there is no AAD or RSL on every jump. Since I think like this I use the hands on both handles method. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334