Ron

How about the straight tail acro Bonanza?.... Man I LOVE that plane. Fast, 4 place, and aerobatic....Though I doubt it can do a Lomcevak...Then again I don't know if I can do one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Never did I say it was smart...And I also said I will not do them like that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Whos ingnoring anything? Not me... But good god man! how could you say You will admit that they are at risk, but will not admit that a person with experience has a much better chance of being safe???? Thats like saying that a pilot with 50 hrs is as safe as a pilot with 1,000 when given a HP plane....Or that we can't tell because we don't have EVERY accident. This is just bad logic John.... Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A duck walks into a bar.... The bar tender says..."Hey buddy your pants are down" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im not mad, but this is not the forum for this stuff..... I a glad he is doing better, but Talk Back is the proper place for this. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Put this in "talkback", not "incidents" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well then why did I post this? Here But in truth a large number of people think Im an asshole... I AM a Muff Borther. But I say it like it is...The ground does not care who you are or what you ment to do.....It just waits. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its OK...I don't let the little things get to me... I guess it was easy for you to take it the "Wrongway" Oh man I kill myself sometimes....Was that too easy? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is a better way to make fast moves... I have been told by some that it is not good for big ways....I used it on a 110 way, and I have a buddy that used it on the 300 way. Back in the early days people lept out in a big "X", it was 50/50 if you were belly or back to earth, but you didn't tumble as much in this position...Then some frog found out if you bend your legs and arch you can fall Belly to earth. Next was the "Boxman" (no not the orginizer, he came latter). Which was better than the old hard arch. Then as more points were being turned, the top teams could not move from the boxman to pick up the grips and back to the box man to move to the next point as fast as they needed to...The mantis evolved from needing to have your hands in front of you to fly and to pick up grips. Look at it this way...you want to fly an airplane? You learn in a Cessna 152 (Hard Arch). Now you want to go fast? You get into a Bonanza (Boxman). You want to do really cool ass shit? Pitts Special (Mantis). You could not learn AFF in the mantis...Man that would be funny to watch though! But if you want to faster...you need the right position...And I'd bet that in 10 years it will be different than today. Its not for everyone...In fact you don't need it, anyone that tells you you do need it is wrong. You can skydive your whole life and not need it...I know pilots that have never flown in a Pitts, and I know pilots that don't want to fly anything else. I teach it to people when I coach. But what do I know? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is a classic problem. The bigger issue is this...Which is more consistant for you? The cogg? or the standard double vert, or this one? I will bet that for most teams the Cogg is MUCH more consistant. The third place advanced team did it Cogg. They did get smoked in that round at nationals, but it comes down to its ONE point in ten rounds....I would bet that all the time spent on it would be better spent doing randoms or working on all the other problem blocks. I see teams do this all the time...they REALLY want to do the cool move. Classic example is this one...Vertical 11's. They spend many jumps trying to get it nailed. When they do it really well, the might save 0.3 seconds on it. But when they blow it, the spend 1.0 seconds trying to fix the fuck up.....Airspeed did an 18 not doing 11 vertical back in the day. Nationals is right around the corner...Pick the most consistant way and train it....Do R&D at the start of next year.... For my other 2 cents...the "standard" way of the Vert is better with the P&T starting the vertical....Better visuals, better starts..ect. And the reason you are having problems is most likley to much "vooma"...You are trying to do to much...the 18 is such a small move, but looks really hard. And start stopping sooner, you want ot fall into place, which means you have to start stopping BEFORE the vertical. Ron Frost 2001 Nationals 14.9 ZHills 16.6, 15.4 NSL. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Whos being an ass? You came here crying wondering why no one will take you seriously...Well, hell you told us why. Nope, I never said it could not be done...I told you the two ways to deal with it. If #1 worked great. Dude, I could not give a rats ass about it...Until you came here crying about it I didn't know. Now if you want to ignore what you asked for, fine..do it. Not pissed, just told you my opinion, which is what you asked for...Like I said glad #1 worked for ya...Now for the second part...shut up about it...not yelling at you...Just drop it. If people know its a hot spot for ya...they will do it just to get a rise out of you. I am not being hostle...In the truth I really don't care about you...I don't know you, never met you, and most likley never will. You came on here asking for advice, and I gave it...Now you clearly don't know me at all...I am direct and to the point. I don't tip toe around anything. I say what I think, how I think it. None of this is a slam on you, never was, and will not be. I just in plain simple english told you the two ways to deal with it.....One was simple, Drop the name. The other is longer....You want to keep the name? Cool, in fact I LIKE it, I find it funny. Does it make me think you are a bad skydiver? Nope, but it could to some people. Glad you get to keep the name.... And trust me, I am in no way upset about anything that happens here of all places. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I also noticed that this guy is not dead....So maybe the 500 jumps of experience helped. Besides there is always going to be someone out side of the proposal that gets hurt...And you will always throw that out and wave it around like a banner....But like I said...this guy is not dead...He might have been if he had 400 jumps. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I still don't have an "A"... However I find my "D" works well enough. I went from 0 jumps to 200 in about 6-7 mths. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

no I am totaly getting your point.... So you have 2 options once again.. 1. shut up about people using your name as a reason to fuck with you. Continue to do the right things and prove yourself over,and over, and over until they look stupid saying how bad of a skydiver you are...Or wait till they die..."Sit by a river long enough and you can see the bodies of your enemies drift by"- Sun Tu, The Art of War. 2. Change your fucking name. Now it seems like you are hell bent on going #1...Fine, I like the nickname. But it will most likley take YEARS and a thousand more jumps before people quit talking smack about your skydiving...And then some people will then just start talking about your personal hygiene habits or your lack there of.....so now the second part of it...Shut up about it. No one likes a bitcher, and if they know its bothers you....they will just keep doing it. Does any of this make sense to you? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This guy is complaining about how people treat him BECAUSE of his name.... Sounds like he has two options... 1. shut up and deal with it...He either proves them wrong enough times that it becomes flavor. And FWIW...Haagen-Daz (Who got his name because most could not say his real name...not by slamming into an ice cream truck) does not mean bad skydiver...Neither does Mad John, Missy or Rook. 2. stop going by the name. Now since he is bitching about it...It seems like #2 is the best option. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Get better Andi.... What happened? So what now with natls? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't know who this is, is it the freefly guy?....But I bet he has proven himself many times over...So now his nickname is just flavor. But until he has established himself in other ways...As long as he encourages the name Wrongway...It will be negative responses he gets. So he can ditch the name, or live with the BS till he has proven himself over and over till THAT sticks. Is Sparky our own Sparky??? Hehe. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im not saying Ray was right to bring that up...But I would have brought up the fact you don't have a riggers ticket...In my opinion, I am going to listen to the guy with the riggeres ticket when it comes to gear. But, YOU brought up the whole not getting a load thing when you didn't have the jumps....So 99% of the time Jump numbers does equal skill in certain types of skydiving. I have 3,000 jumps, but only around 100 tandems...So I listen to the guys with 1,500 jumps, 900 of them Tandems when it comes to Tandem jumps....But Im not going to give him the same level of 4way respect that a guy with 1,000 4way jumps has. Now I have one example of a guy with mostly video jumps that is a good 4way jumper....But its not the average. And I would listen to you about gear to a point...But I am going to listen to a rigger first. FWIW, my rigger has over 5,000 pack jobs...And I listen to her more than I listen to the 100 pack wonder. And I listen to the 100 pack wonder more than I listen to myself. But jump numbers are a great way to gauge a persona skills and experiences....For those that preach that tunnels are reducing that...Yep, I have a teamate that had 800 jumps, and could fly circles around me....He is dead now since he didn't handle a mal correctly....So one aspect does not translate to all areas.... So when it comes to skill i the air and under canopy...Im still using raw jump #'s...It works. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Explain please? You have skill or you don't...You have knowledge or you don't. And skill or knowledge is subjective. An AFF I with 1,000 jumps has more skill with students and more knowledge of students than me at 3,000 jumps. A rigger with 100 packs knows more than me about gear. But I coach 2 guys in 4way with 6,000 jumps (one was on the 300way), and I know a guy with 10,000 that will listen to me about 4way. I however know almost nothing about headdown, and a guy with 100 Freefly jumps I am sure could teach me a few things. Now you can pretend you have more skill than you do, or know more than you do. But thats a different subject. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True, you will not know the history or the culture, but I'd bet you would be more skilled than the guy with 500 jumps over 10 years. Or for that matter the guy with 1000 jumps over 10 years. You will not have the same knowledge, but you will have better skills. And I'd bet the guy that has been around 10 years has more Knowledge than they guy that has been around a year. Well I would put it like this..... You can spend 20 years and zero jumps on a DZ and have knowledge, but not skill. You can do 1,000 jumps in a year and have very little knowledge, but have mad skill. But I would bet all the time on the guy that has been around longer and has more jumps to have more knowledge and skill than either...And this is experience. It takes both, one does not make up for the other. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Welcome to what we call "The World". In "The World" the number of times a person has done something IS a very good indicator of their ability to do it better than someone with less. Sucks, but I bet there was a reason...Even if that reason was that group wanted to ensure a higher level of skill on that jump...And yes barring someone with a ton of tunnel time, I would bet on the guy with 500 jumps to be better than the guy with 200, and 90% of the time I would be right. Time in sport does help with gear...Ya know what helps more? A riggers ticket. A guy with 300 jumps and riggers ticket will know more about gear than the guy with 500 jumps...Is it fair to say a guy with a riggers ticket knows more than a guy without? For that matter a rigger with 5000 packs is most likely better than the guy with 300 packs.....Oh shit its all about the numbers again!!!! The people with more of X are better than people with less of X in almost anything. Well how many jumps is a better indication of if you can handle a canopy, not how long you have had it.... Funny again the more times you have used something the better you will be with it!!! Yes, but if you have 50 jumps you might be a good rigger, but your RW will still suck. And just because you are a great rigger does not mean that you can turn points...Or just becasue you are a great pilot does not mean you know shit about headdown... Compare Apples to Apples....5000 jumps does not make you a good rigger. But 5000 pack jobs most likley makes you better than they guy with 100. 50 jumps does not make you a good skydiver, but I would bet the guy with 5000 is better. It is exactly what your experience level is.....How can you be better than what you have done? It may not be what you know, but on average I'd bet the guy with 5000 jumps knows more than the guy with 5, 50, 500, or even 2,000 jumps. Who said it did, but I would put my money on the guy that has been in the sport 7 years and has 1000 jumps to know more. I could be wrong, but 99% of the time I bet I'd be right. This is an argument that people who feel they are being treated badly always use...Like it or not, jump numbers DO mean a lot. I hated it when I had 500 jumps, but it does not make it less true. If you do X 100 times you will be better than the guy that has done X 5 time. This will hold true in 99% of the situations.....But then again everyone thinks they are ahead of the normal. But its not true, someone has to be normal. Not everyone can be that 1% Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I agree....But like I said if he wants to be taken seriously...He should lose the name. It will haunt him until he proves he has the right stuff, and every time he introduces himself that way he is going to have to prove the nickname wrong. If he went by Jason or JJ or Jones...He would not have to live the name down all the time. By him liking it, and infact encouraging its use...He just increases the problem he is bitching about. Makes no sense to me. Ron (no cool nickname) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, and the USPA that makes the rules acting stupid. The USPA is a waste. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Rays questions about how many have you packed is a very valid point. And from my limited rigging experience I have never been told to do it the way you describe. And as Kelly pointed out the way you said it should be done was not in the manual..... I don't know of ANY rigger that said they have gotten a service bulletin from RWS about this. And knowing RWS I doubt that anything they do is not public knowledge. Maybe you should do more homework before you post? If you can show me the service bulletin, or where in the manual it says to do it that way, not just hearsay...You will have a valid point. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Like I said before...You want to lose the stigma that goes with that name....Lose the name. Or like Billvon said do a bunch of cool shit....But warn you, if you walk up to me and tell me your name is "wrongway"....It does not instil confidence to me in your abilities. Lose the name. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334