Ron

And I would bet that more skydives are made by those with over 500 jumps than those under...Since USPA counts those that only made one, but joined the USPA. I personally know several jumpers that make 1,000 jumps a year. And I know several USPA members that only make 40 a year. So it would seem that there are more skydives made by those with over 500 jumps...So they should have more accidents right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Age can equal experience right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry!! RSL's will kill you!!! Better? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Looking at the landing fatalities it does show more under 500 jump skydivers than over 500 jump skydivers... Does this not say anything to you? I agree with most of the other stuff you wrote. However we will never get the Data you want. And lack of action should not be confused as movement. The USPA is too lazy to do anything. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A PD113 or 106 is much safer for a guy with 40 jumps to land than a Velocity 96. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

People have taken lightnings to terminal before... I know of a few people that jumped them as mains for years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK Brent, go Demo a Velocity 103 next weekend and tell me what you think...Then go jump a PD113 and let me know. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

For a student it is safer for them to land in a tree than try to turn. Anyone else should have the experience to know when you can make a turn....For students I tell them 200 feet. I have yet to see a student get hurt by a tree..I have seen several carried off due to a low turn. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh good grief lets start picking at it.... And yes, landing in tress is safer than a low turn. If you can do a turn, then its not low now is it? If you do a braked turn at 50 feet its not low....For that turn now is it? Jezz people "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then he does not have much experience with Freefall. He does not have enough knowledge with Freefall. If I were doing a SL I owuld listen to this guy...If I were doing a Freefall I would not. Simple huh? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok....well still a 106R is better than a sub 100 main. Don't you agree? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Is it possible that it was enough seperation? You have 3 guys saying it was and you saying it was not. You have to know which battles are able to be won. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, but by using experience you can eliminate some of them from becoming a factor in a situation that could lead to an accident. Then even if that event happens you can draw on experience to prevent it from becoming an accident. Or at least limit the amount of damage. Case in point: I was in a CRW wrap. The bottom guy and I talked it out and we decided that he needed to go..We decided that he would go first, then I would. He cutaway and his canopy got all tangled with mine...It started mine flying very funny. My first reaction was to chop it...But then I waited and started to look around...I was unsure I would clear his main...I made the choice to attempt to land my canopy with his wrapped in mine. When I did land I had two riggers look at me before I moved. They both agreed that if I would have choped I would not have cleared, and the reserve would most likley not have opened....I wanted to cutaway...but I didn't. I made this choice based off of fatality I had seen where a guy did cutaway and it never cleared...Without that experience...I would have cutaway, and most likley died. I don't think there is a definate answer to this one.... Experience is a combination of Skills, Knowledge, and the culmination of all the events of your life..not just in one area. Years and number of jumps plays a part, but so does knowledge and experiences in other areas. Knowledge you can work on...Years and jumps you just have to live through. But if I had to say one thing...I would say number of jumps. The number of times you have done something is a good indication of your ability to do it again. Then years..It is impossible to be in the sport and not learn something. Then knowledge...But knowledge is gained by jumps and years..Knowledge is nothing without application. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I knew this was gonna happen...... However I thought it was going to be To: "I had a very sweet and sour Lab" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It was a bad decision made by lack of experience. All of these are avoidable if you have the experience to know about them. Place: Don't jump into places that are to tight for you, know how to spot, identify when you need to land somewhere else, don't do new stuff at new places...All can be ruled out if you have experience. Weather: I know when to not jump due to weather...people with 100 jumps sometimes don't. Heres a story..I had 200 jumps and was getting geared up for a jump and my buddy have 1500 and was not getting geared up...I asked him why and he told me that the winds were going to pick up and it was going to rain before we got to altitude...He suggested I scratch off the load. I thought he was nuts since it looked fine to me, but I respected his experience and scratched...15 min later the winds were 20 MPH, and it started to rain. People landed all over the place and were getting drug everywhere....He knew better, I didn't. Traffic: I very rarely get cut off...Why? because I avoid other canopies. I have the experience to know who is going to do what under canopy...Its not 100% but its better than when I had 100 jumps. And when some jackass does cut me off I have the experience tohandle it better now than when I did back then. Physical & Mental condition: I know when I am not ready to jump, and I have the experience to know it is a bad idea. So I use my experience and don't jump. lack of sleep, dehydrated, hungry,: Same thing I know when I can be all of the above and I use my experience and don't jump, or I know how it will affect me and take that into account. Other people: I use my experience to guess what most people are going to do...Most of the time I am right, and when I am not I have the experience to be able to make it less of a situation. black cat: not even going to respond..If you think Luck good or bad is what keeps you safe, find a new sport. So see how EXPERIENCE can eliminate all those problems? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well the smallest reserve that PD makes (I think) is a 113. I think most small reserves are around 100 as well. I am sure that most rigs with sub 100 sized canopies have around 100 sized reserves. I do think that a 100 sized reserve is safer than a sub 100 main to land. Yes, it can stall on you.. I have a 1.6 loaded PD113 that I have landed just great in brakes, but I have seen some other reserves land the pilot hard...but I still think safer than a newbie under a sub 100 main. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was disscussing how the insurance companies have done the research to show how lack of experience is a factor in accidents...That was for John...you jumped into the disscusion. And this was for reason? I already knew that you don't have to follow the USPA reg...Hell even at a USPA DZ you don't USPA has no enforcement powers. How can you say you had the experience? 30 jumps is nothing. And then you say "It was clear pilot fault"...Ok is that not lack of experience? And like I asked before..name one more factor that experience could not have avoided? Duh! Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Cows are sacred in India... We still have McDonalds. I know a bunch of 5 year olds that hate the idea of eating Bambi or Thumper, but we still do. Different culture, different values...And still none of my buisness. Leve em alone, you can't change the culture of another country. And I had a very sweet Lab...If you tried to hurt him I would kill you, but thats me and here, not them and there. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No I know of companies that WILL NOT sell you a policy for a 16 yearold and a new Corvette...But you seem to be missing the point here...The fact is they charge more due to the fact that less experienced people tend to have accidents in HP cars more than they do in regular performance cars, and less than experienced people in HP cars..... Why do you think this does not translate to canopy flight? Only if the DZ is a USPA group member...Of the two DZ's I go to most Zhills and DeLand...ZHills requires it, DeLand does not. No, LACK or experience is a factor that leads to an accident. What are some others? Show me where experience does not reduce the chance of an accident in 90% of the accidents? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Put tags like PD does on the risers...And make that a part of the gear check. Since the smallest I've jumped is a 69 and much smaller than that I'd be flying a kite, so I'd chop it. now I jump a 107, so if it was smaller than that but above kite sized, I'd hook it higher. Now I would tell people to do what is comfertable with them, and do it high. I would like to see students get instruction about HP canopies...Drill into them that a low turn will kill you. the smallest reserve will be safer for a new person to land than a tiny main. Well a reserve mal is possible and it has happend, but I'd play the odds it will work fine. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And some do, and some still get them....But some companies WILL NOT enven carry policies like that. I can get a 72 Camero for very little money...But it will cost a bunch to insure it still...Not becasue the car is worth anything, but becasue of the damage to others I could cause. Not such an issue with skydiving, which is why no one pays attention to us "meat bombs" unless we kill a bus load of nuns. Who said anything about your jump #'s??? I just used you as an example..If you have the cash I bet you could buy a Stiletto 107 from someone. (Not me) I don't understand what you are saying here? But I don't care about other countries...I have no say in how your clubs work, I can only try to make change in the areas I am in. Such as the USPA. He is not dead. So it kinda does huh? My theory was that with experience you will not get killed or hurt as bad. So try again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but the high cost of car insurance will limit what a kid drives... Plus they did do studies that proved that less experience and HP equals more accidents...So in that case it is relevant. USPA is the largest skydiving body...If they don't have the money to do that study...no one does. Unless you want the FAA or other goverment body to do it for ya. Some manufactorers don't care if you kill yourself..They still made a sale. I have a Stiletto 107, I could sell it to you with your 108 jumps. I would not, but I know of people that have done this....There are hundreds of ways. So the governing body approach is the only way, and it is being done by several countries. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A grasshopper walks into a bar.... The bar tender says "Hey, I have a drink named after you!" The grasshopper looks puzzled and says "You got a drink named Bill?" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Correct!...I just wanted to point out that an RSL is not a perfect device...Nor is an AAD..They are better than nothing 99% of the time, but both can cause problems. I just hate it when I hear some new (and some old) jumper say that they are "safe" since they have "X" cool toy. Skydiving equipment can save you or kill you depending on hundereds of variables...I just want people to know both the good, the possible bad, and the chances of either happening with any gear choice. Not to just blindly make a choice. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'd go with the USPA didn't do anything since they are a worthless group that is more interested in a Museum than than anything else. I wish I did have that hard data, but as has been said like 100 times it does not take hard data to prove what has been show in every other type of activity.... You can't fly a HP plane with out instruction and PROVING you can handle it, why can you get a HP canopy without proving you can handle it? The FAA saw how pilots were getting killed, and made it so you need to PROVE you can handle HP before you can fly it. Auto insurance says that the higher performance the car the bigger the chance of an accident, and they have very high costs if you want to give a 16 year old (Read low experience) a Corvette...In fact some companies will not even sell you insurance on a car like that to a 16 year old...How does this not translate? I can't rent a Bonanza from a FBO...I don't have the 500 hrs they want. But I do have like 20 hrs in a Bonanza, but I still can't rent one. Why? The aircraft insurance company has done studies and shown that people with less than 500 hrs seem to ball up complex HP aircraft more than guys with more experience. How does this not compare? Now the big difference is that the FAA and insurance companies have a lot of money to pour into stupid studies...USPA does not, and there is no need to have skydiving insurance...You only break yourself, not a 100,000 airplane....so no one seems to care enough to do the studies. But how does all of the above not relate? Can you tell me that with added performance there is no need for added training? How can you make the people get the training or not jump HP canopies? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334