Ron

Well at least you will admit you are dependent on it. But here is my main issue: Then why do those jumps at all? This is the danger of CYPRES dependence. Who is safer, the guy that jumps on any load, but has a CYPRES? Or the guy that jumps only on loads that he would go on without one? Now you see the dependence? You will do things with it that you would not normally do. This includes putting yourself at a greater risk and using the damn thing like security blanket. True saftey is limiting your exposure to injury by using you brain to prevent putting yourself into dangerous situations that might require a CYPRES. It is not buying a CYPRES and doing anything knowing that you are "safe". Me, I jump on loads where I would not need one, but I have one. This is a backup. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh there are, but who knows who is who? I have one, I prefer to jump with it, but I will jump without it. And thats the litmis test...Would you jump without it? What if it did not exist would you be a skydiver? If you can answer these to yourself and be truthful, it will show you. But either way if you get saved by one you really need to look at your life and this sport. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I never say that they should be booted....But they do need to look at this sport again. I don't put pulled low in there...If you pulled low you did save you life. And a CYPRES will fire as high as 1200 feet during a deployment (It gets tricked by the burble going away at it fires) I so agree with this..If you have a CYPRES fire you did fuck up...Even getting knocked out can be avoided in some situations. But I see way to many people act like this...And this is whay I have been bringing up the device dependence of the "CYPRES Generation". To CanuckInUSA : Oh hell yes you should quit! I know your type. Actually you saved your life...low, but you did it. Now if you were awake and did nothing or freaked out...I may mean it when I say you should quit. Yes, but what is a better sign that you should not be skydiving than not being able to save yourself becasue you lost altitude awarness, freaked out, or didn't handle a mal? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

3rd best 4 way team? Were you at the 2002 Nationals? I was and last I checked the Knights were standing on the podium with gold around their necks after 10 rounds. If they were the 3rd best the would have been on the short podium with the bronze. Like it or not when the meet counted the GK's did win. And thats how the USPA selects the US team. You also have no way to prove that Airspeed or Majic could have done better. The fact is the GK's did what they needed ot be the US team, and they are the US team. As for the 4 way female ,and 8way teams. The 4 women in France are not the same 4 that were at the nationals. Only two of them were together. The Norgies and the Brits changed one member from the last World meet. And the same for the 8way team. They were not the same 8 at the nationals. The Russian team is the same team that won the last World Meet. All of the US teams met the requirements to be the US team. They are the US team. If they don't win it is just a matter of who brought the best game that day. And don't forget the French do have the world record # of points in time. 42 in 35 seconds. Any team would have problems with them. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't get it. People do take more risks since they have these things. Some people are skydiving now that would not if there were no AAD's. But AAD's do fail. And there are people out there that have fires and don't think anything bad about having a fire. Do you at least see how an AAD fire is a very big issue? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok the thread that started this is a person doing a bad exit... I consider that to be controlable. And I NEVER said that an AAD is a bad thing...I have said DEPENDENCE on it is... The all these people say they are not dependent even though they will not jump without one. Is it so hard to just admit that you are dependent on the damn thing? I don't depend on my AAD....I will jump without it... If you will not then you ARE dependent... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They would be better not screwing up the procedures, and in this case she did save herself. I think people should wear a CYPRES, I do. But never to rely on them which means don't do what you would do with it, without it...And yes that measn jumping in general. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, but they are all active. A reserve ride is proving you can save your own life. A CYPRES fire is proving you were not able to save your own life... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No dude she screwed up her procedures #1. And she should really think about why she did. #2 She did save herself, so you can't say the CYPRES would have saved her. You don't know it would have fired if it didn't. Does not look like she relyed on it...But she does need more training on her E procedures...She did keep fighting, but While I am glad she is alive, it would have been fixed by: #1. Not screwing up the procedures for a cutaway. You can't call this a CYPRES save since it didn't fire. She saved her own life.....And while she did it the long way, she did save her own life. Good for her! Now work on those procedures more. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why would only the riggers forum have restricted membership? I think the Instructor forums would need it as well. As it is I think the way you have it is fine. However maybe only certain people should be allowed to post to incidents....They could post, but a greenie could approve it or delete it before it gets posted. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No fucking way. Its a cool toy but thats just stupid. I see many of the "CYPRES Generation" say they would... Well I don't find that surprizing at all to be honest. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, Im not...You just think I am. Say what you want. If you will not do something without something that you will do with it...Then you ARE dependent on it. How hard is that to grasp? With it, you jump. Without it, you don't. So you have it and jump, or don't have it and don't jump. How is that not dependence? Atleast admit you depend on it.... Its really a simple question Will I jump without it? If not, and you will jump with it then it becomes a dependence. We can cover if you let it effect your jumping later...Which I personally think you do if you have to have it to jump in the first place. How does needing an AAD to jump NOT fit with this discription? At least admit you depend on it...we can cover if it is smart or not later. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think the Saudi's do support terrorism. Folks this is about religion, not politics. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well last year it was frost 14.9. This year it started great 20 training jumps and a 16.6. Then all hell broke loose around jump #70. And now one guy is at GK tryouts, another didn't budget for nationals since he didn't think we were going. Guy one comes back from the GK thing 3 days before nationals, and if guy 2 can get some money set up we are going to try and throw something together there. a far cry from the 300 training jumps we planned. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

a baseball hat works well also. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK lets say I had a cherry 1966 Corvette that didn't have seat belts and I was willing to give you the keys... Would you drive it? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think that pull altitudes have increased due to slower opening canopies...My first canopy was a Raven II. It would open in 200-250 feet. Then an Esprit. It would open in what felt like 5 feet. Then I got my Stiletto, and my pull altitudes went up to adjust for the slower opening. This was before I had a CYPRES. Also before a CYPRES not many were doing headdown..I can't think of anyone anyway. So new canopies, and new styles of skydiving get my votes for why pull altitudes increased...Not AAD's. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In the 82nd we went out at 1,000 feet in training. 800 feet in practice, and 500 feet in combat...You could go with or without a reserve in combat. Gear ranged from 40 pounds for the rig and nothing to 150ish pounds of crap straped all over you. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes...Otherwise why would I bother typing all this crap? If you will do things that you normally would not do without one...It is a bad thing. I will drive without a seat belt, and did for several years. I also know that a seat belt is not a save all that will protect me from all things. I don't drive at 100 miles an hr and say that "It's OK I have a seat belt!" If you will not do something without an AAD maybe you should not do it at all? This includes skydiving in general. They fail. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Who said they were all skydiving mistakes? I have mistakes in driving,motorcycles, climbing, flying, SCUBA diving, and yes some good ones in skydiving. Not all were as bad as some, none required hospital stays or metal put inside me...I did have one E room visit due to a bad hookturn...But I didn't break anything. Some of my mistakes are small such as docking in the wrong slot on a 40 way...not a saftey issue but still a mistake. Did you think all my mistakes were almost fatal? I have a few that should have killed me that I could have prevented, and some that I had almost no control over. And a couple of really stupid things I have done thinking I was bullet proof....And some really stupid things I thought of doing. They are all mistakes. I would you rather learn from mine than have to make them on your own....If you SCUBA dive I will gladly tell you some of my better SCUBA mistakes...One involves being 250 feet down in a cave and being so narc'ed that I started to take of my mask thinking I didn't need it. Wow that was dumb! Lession? Don't do 250' on air. Must use a mix. 218' is risking OXtox for any extended time, but it was just a bounce dive. But we didn't take into account that I had never been that deep and how the nitrogen would effect me. Oh well I lived and would never take you that deep on air for your first time. Well no, I saw that comment from you as smart ass on my own...But I got confermation before I replyed...I was checking with others I trust and getting others opinions... The result? All 5 told me you were being a smart ass...Which just confermed my view of it..And so it was game on! We could be..they are independant of each other. You could be a smart ass, and I could be an asshole. The big thing with me is I don't care what people I don't know think of me. And I tell things just like I see them. I am direct and to the point. Political correct is not something I do. The ground does not care how you think of it, and neither do I. I just am who I am and I make no apologies about it. True, but it did look it. And I did have 5 trusted others tell me that you were being one before I responded. The result was 6 to 0 in favor of it being a smart ass comment. It was a good one, and all I did was reply with when you have X number more jumps and have not done anything stupid call me up and gloat...But I bet you will have done something stupid by then. I just hope you live through it so you can call me up. Good but some will not...This and the fact you have made a jump sans AAD tells me you are not one of the ones I worry about. Well I still worry, but I worry about everyone. If I was not a republican I could be accused of having a bleeding heart. Good points. However I was not in any real additional danger. I was the same as any other passenger. Then I did get 3 gear checks after I had put my kit on. I was in no way a good example. But back then I had only 1,000 jumps and didn't care about how I looked (Well I still don't care what people think of me..My Mom still loves me, and I can always get a dog.) But at that time I never thought of being a "role model"....I still don't think like that. But I have learned that most people with a few hundred jumps think they now know it all, and are not going to listen to me or anyone else unless they tell them what they want to hear. So again, I am not a role model. I still listen to people. The day I think I really know what I am doing is the day I quit. I hope people can learn from my stupid things so they don't have to learn them on their own. Just I like I learn from the ones of us that screwed up and are dead. Have a good day and remember....Don't get on without gear and don't SCUBA 250 feet on air. Also don't do a wheelie on a busy street right infront of the motorcycle dealership. Check your handles! Don't just reach down and pull out the power in a plane when on long final...The engine might just die. Next time hit the brakes and hit the car, don't swerve and end up flipping your new car about 7 times. There are more. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Relax it happens... I see many 50-200 jump people seem to stall out. One reason is that you are just not learning as fast as you were. Its normal. The other is you have alread learned so mush you think you should be better. We used to have this in martial arts..."Blue belt blues". Same thing you have moments of brilliance followed by a really bad performance. Its caused by: You are not a newbie now and most people treat you like an up jumper. So you are no longer being looked after as much, so you don't get feedback on every jump anymore. You are jumping with different people and they sometimes screw up, but you don't know enough yet to know its them screwing up not you...they might not know either. Sometimes you are on a load with people much more experienced...Being next to a really good jumper can make you feel stupid. You are trying harder things than before...Bigger formations harder points more points. It will start to even out. you can: Get coaching. Jump smaller groups. Get a team. Do some tunnel. ASK FOR FEEDBACK from the most experienced person on that jump. Many times I will not give feedback unless you screwed up, unless asked....Some people don't want it. I tell people that if I don't point you out it means you did well. That the great moves will be talked about, and the bad ones will be laughed at. Relax it happens and things will come together. ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or reply to Or Well I never said I did an inordinate amount..you did. You don't know haw many stupid things I have done in my life do you? And I don't like false bravado comment...I only tell the stories so that people can learn from them if they wish. Then and then Which I never did...What I did do was tell you to do as many jumps as me and if you don't have afew no shit stories then you could gloat. Im betting you will have afew of your own. Ok I did...Sorry I never saw that one, only the snide remark one. Really? I got a few PM/Emaisl about this one: And I even responded to them before I got back to you...5 of my friends thought you were being a smart ass...So maybe you didn't mean to, but it did come off that way. Oh it is thicker...Im not in the slightest bit mad. Just enjoying this actually. And in my opinion you are acting like a smart ass. Could we both be wrong? Well your first comment came across VERY smart as a smart ass comment. Maybe you didn't mean it, but it does seem like it. And a question and a smart ass comment get very different responses from me. Great...notice I never said YOU were dependent..Only that there ARE people. Would you treat a CYPRES fire as a run of the mill occurance, or would you realize that its about as close to death as you can get and you would need to think about it? Now about that question.... I ran to the plane without my gear on... Why? Well, I had somewhere around 1,000 jumps. A buddy of mine saw me on the DZ and put me on a load without telling me. It was a weekday and they needed people to fly. He comes up to me wearing his gear on a 10 min call and says "Oh shit man, you are on this load with me..We are doing a two way". I tell him I can't make it since my gear is at my trailer. He tells me that the whole load will be scratched if I don't go (Since thats why he put me on it) and the props are starting to turn on the Otter. There was a group of students that were waiting all day to jump, so I said give me a second and ran to get my Jumpsuit. He grabbed my gear from the gear room and told me he would meet me at the boarding area. When I get there the plane was waiting on me, and my gear was nowhere to be seen. He waives to me from the plane, and yells he has my gear. Now I knew I didn't have enough time to put all my gear on without wasting all that Jet A. I know its not my problem, but I do want to help the DZ...Also I have that "1,000 jumps" mentality. (I am WAY more carefull now that then). As I jump in the plane it starts to roll..I fiqured that they would let me get geared before take off...But then again they didn't seem to wait. It was a light load so I just walked back to the co pilot seat and strapped in. I fiqure that I will be a co pilot till I can take the seat belts off. He starts out to the runway before I get seated, so I had to rush a little. After take off I ask my buddy if he armed my CYPRES. He said he didn't know this rig had one. To late now we are airborne. Oh well. Nothing I can do other than ride the plane down...And thats not an option for me. At around 1500-2000 feet I take of my seat belt and start putting on my rig. It probley takes less than a minute, and I can always sit down and put on seat belt till I have it on. After I get it on and give myself a gear check, and get one from my buddy we talk about the dive. At this point another guy asks if I want a gear check...I did put the damn thing on in the plane so I say "Yes please". I pay attention to people when they give me gear checks. I start to feel him pushing on my rig when he is checking my reserve...He is trying to turn on my CYPRES! I roll away from him, and you know the rest of the story. It was not the smartest thing I have ever done, but there was very little risk the way I worked it...I sat in a pilot seat till I could get my rig on, so I was in a normal seat, and I was not near the door. I doubt I would have done this in a single engine plane, and in no way would I have done it in a cessna....However, I did almost change rigs in a cessna once. Another stupid story, but I had the sense not to do it. I would not recomend anyone do this, and as Chris said he would not have taken off with me not geared up. I let myself get caught up in a series of events that I didn't have control over. I know better now, but not then. So thats the whole story. I should not have done it, but I was over the "newbie" stage and into the "I know what I am doing stage"....This gets followed by the "How the hell did I survive all that stupid shit stage?" I am in now. I think the most dangerous jumpers are not the new ones...You watch for them, and they still have a good dose of fear in them. Around 300 jumps they stop being scared,and start pushing it a little (now it seems at times way to much). Around 700ish they become dangerous. They think they know what they are doing and don't take advice very well. Then something really bad happens to them or someone they know and they wake up. This just happens. It can happen sooner, and some times never does happen. Better answer? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't have bad opinions of people that have them...I do have an issue with people that will have a fire and not think about how they screwed up. Or people that depend on them. If you are knocked out I would hope you would stop and think about how and why you got into that situation. And I would hope you would not go onto skydives that have a higher risk because you do have a CYPRES. And if you pass out due to a medical condition I would hope you would find out why you did pass out...Not just get another cutter and keep jumping. Further I would hope that if you knew you had a medical condition that could cause you to pass out that you would not jump. However I have seen all of these (Except the get knocked out one....Never met on of those). I have seen people with saves think nothing of it...when I ask them about it I get told they are safe since they bought a CYPRES and thats why they bough it. I have seen people go on skydives and when I mention that there is a high risk on that jump I get told thats its ok since they have a CYPRES. I know people with medical conditions that can make them pass out....So insted of not jumping, they buy a CYPRES and think thats the answer. Now I would rather have CYPRES saves than diviots on the DZ, but I would rather not have the CYPRES saves. And after one I wish people would sit down and think about it more than seems to be the norm now. Thats all. But people will not, and I can't make them. So all I can do is rant about it here, and have people hate me for bringing it up. Oh well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And thats all I ever said. You need to relook at WHY. But I have seen people have a save and not do this..."Its why I bought it" Is what I am told. Give me a reason that you would not do a hop n pop from 3,500 feet with out an AAD. I would not say they are inordinate based on the number of my jumps...You said that. I have had close calls, and I bet there are several people that have had as many in the same number of jumps....I would rather you not have to ahve any...but its your life and your choice. And its not false bravado....I just don't hide when I fuck up...I tell people so they can learn the lession if they wish. Because you said you didn't question me....So now you admit you did. I don't care really. I was as safe as the pilot or any other passenger would be. Agreed, and thats the same thing I tell people who are getting on the plane with leg straps not done...Of course since I was next to the pilot it would have been hard to push me out the door though. And sinc eI went from seat belt to rig...The chances of an E exit in that one min...while there was very small. Actaully I told you to keep your mouth shut after you came back with this snide remark. Thats not a question...a question ends with one of these (?) and asks for more info...See the difference? (Notice the question mark!) And most people don't act like a know it all smart ass to me when they ask questions...They get a very different response from me. If you had asked why I went to the A/C with out a rig...Or maybe what I did you would have gotten a VERY different answer. But you didn't you gave a snide remark, and got one back. See the difference? (Again a question mark) I only act this way to snot nosed know it all newbies. Take that how you like. Don't act like that, I will not act like this. How would you like a person off AFF level 1 talking to you like you did me? Remember you didn't ask a question...You made a snide remark. Ask questions all day. Act like a smart ass...Expect smart ass back. When you ask a question (Which you didn't remember..you forgot the little (?) at the end) in a snide smart ass way...You get that attitude back. Well I would hope you would talk to someone you trust as opposed to just trusting someone who can type. I didn't do that till you got all smart assed. Again, you didn't ask a question Remember no (?) at the end? (Notice the (?)). You made a smart ass coment with out any more info. No there was no question (no(?)), just a smart ass comment. So then it was not teaching, it was responding to a smart ass comment. Totally different things. again ask a QUESTION, and not make a smart ass comment. You will get an answer, not a smart ass reply. Try me...You will find I will answer almost any question (May not be the right answer, but I will try me best to give a good one. And if I don't know I will gladly tell you I don't know)...I can even do it with out being a smart ass if you ask it like a question, and not a smart ass comment. Care to try? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334