Ron

"Screamimg from the rafters"???? I have said 'it is not a big deal provided precautions are taken'..... Precautions that seem to be working since you are unable to provide a SINGLE example of an incident. Yet you still have not provided ONE example. You just keep crying about the sky falling. I am still waiting on you to provide ONE shred of data to back your position. How long do you think I should wait? Instead, you have avoided answering and instead gone to trying to make it personal. I have just shown that your position is based without ONE shred of data to back it up. When you bring some DATA rather than just unfounded claims.... I might take you seriously. Seriously, bring some data and lets talk.... Until then I see no point in just letting you rant on me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You go first. You are the one claiming that there is a danger. If it is so dangerous, then you should be able to show that by citing some accidents. It is up to you to prove data to back your point. Well, the first thing you need to do is to identify the issue. You have brought nothing but claims of "The sky is falling". Once you can provide some data, then that data can be looked at to see if there is a trend. So far you have just brought claims based on theoretical issues based only on fear. Maybe a better person to ask would be the guy that has done it a bunch.... He would be a better person to ask than me, who has only done it a few times or you who is just crying about a problem with no data to back it up. You have loudly proclaimed how dangerous it is... Yet you have not shown a SINGLE accident. I can think of the literally thousands of times the plane has been hot fuled at zhills and I can't think of a single incident. So, thousands of events of no issue vs zero incidents..... The data seems to not support your claims. But please, bring some data to back up your position and then maybe we can see if there is a trend. Of course, please bring some examples of accidents that we can study and learn from. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you are just as 'logical' and argumentative as always. You will notice that *you* replied to *me* and accused me of "encouraging complicity" not the other way around. Of course, you STILL have not brought any data either. And then of course YOU made a personal comment about me... You know playing the player not the ball..... So overall.... Business as normal from you.... I would think a moderator would be above such behavior.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is more a failure of your understanding than anything else. "Not a big deal" is because it has been done for a very long time with no issues. I do see you just ignored the "If it is done correctly". That implies a process that has been tested and approved. Maybe you would like to list the number of accidents at skydiving centers due to hot fueling turbines? Then maybe compare that to the number of people getting hurt in a DZ fire pit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends..... Some holidays we just agree to get each other nothing. Works for both of us. Some times we get nice stuff. This Christmas I got her 1000 dollar 8way tunnel camp at XP (she already did it so no spoiling the surprise). Just ask her what she wants... My Wife is great in that we both are not high maintenance. Getting nothing for me works great for my wife since I am very difficult to shop for... I tend to just go buy what I want. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. It is clear you are just shopping for the answer you want. 2. You should post NON-skydiving questions like this in Bonfire. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Please show me where I advcoated complacency. The fact is that hot fueling has been around a LONG time and it has a pretty good safety record. More people get hurt at DZ firepits each year than by hot fueling. More people get hurt cooking at the DZ than hot fueling. But again, please show where I advocated complacent behavior? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not a big deal if it is done correctly. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe a better picture. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1PM is wintering at Airglades. They are flying the occasional load in it when there are enough jumpers. A little story about 2PM. When it left Zhills in the late 90's we threw a party, partly because it was a piece of history, and partly because by this time it was slow as hell. Then later I ran across it in I think Raeford. We threw a party when it left there since it was now SLOWER. The at an TX 4 way meet I pulled into San Marcus and saw 2PM. By this time it was so slow that we had to fly around and look for thermals. The DZO swore that he was putting new engines on it... Last I had heard, it was back to being fast. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They tracked and both had off heading openings. These small canopies even when still in brakes still haul ass. They tried to avoid the collision, but were unable. Both had to chop. The lesson is to track like hell and this should serve as a wake up to those that don't think that small HP canopies require better skills in ALL aspects, not just landing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its a gift, buy what you can easily afford and it will be enough. 15 mins can do wonders for a lot of people. And much more than 15mins might be too much for someone who does not have a lot of tunnel. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I can fix you in freefall as well as in the tunnel. The only real difference is that the student is normally more relaxed and if they don't "get" what I am saying I can pull them out, tell them and then throw them back in. But to claim that someone can't "fix a body position" in freefall is not accurate. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is only because you have not been around before that tunnel. Nonsense, if you are doing two ways or even most three ways 12 foot is fine. Yes, it is not as nice as the newer ones. But, most tunnels are better than the person who is flying in it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Everyone will have a favorite answer.... And just like in aviation where the "best" plane is the one currently in your hangar, the "best" rig is normally the one on your back. I have jumped every rig on the market, owned three different ones.... There are some that I like better than others, only to find the guy next to me likes the ones I don't more than the ones I love. This is all Ford v. Chevy. You need to find what YOU like. A few suggestions: 1. Make sure the person who recommends brand "X" is not getting a deal from brand "X" 2. Make sure that the rig is popular in your area... Yes, any real rigger can pack any rig, but I'd rather have a rigger that knows how my rig packs because they have packed a thousand of them rather than 4. The "popular in your area" also works for getting replacement parts. I had a mal in DeLand and lost my freebag and bridle. A guy that worked for RW opened up the building on a Sunday and got me a freebag and PC and packed my reserve.... I was down about an hour. That would not have happened if I had been jumping a say Infinity (The converse would be true if I had been jumping where the make the Infinity). The "popular in your area" also normally means that someone around there gets a good deal on them.... Since most containers are equal... Why not save a few bucks? All this being said... I have two rigs currently a Javelin and a Vector. I personally find that the Jav's fit great and if buying used have found that used Jav's fit a larger selection of people. However, I think the UPT stuff is some of the best designed stuff out there.... Who popularized the throw out? Booth. Who popularized the 3 ring? Booth. Who popularized the skyhook? Booth. This is not to say that say a Talon, or Wings, or Infinity or anything else is less of a rig... But you asked an opinion and I gave exactly that and WHY I think that way. So how do I suggest you buy a rig? 1. Talk to your local rigger and see what he likes. 2. Look around on a busy Saturday at your home DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have seen people perform both methods for a pcit and have seen both types of people walk away, and both types of people die. I am however in your camp and think that by not cutting away we still have a few options (like cutaway later). AND most importantly, we deploy a reserve and stop our fall. Still, a pcit is one of those make a choice before it happens, try like hell to prevent it, and execute your plan quickly if it does happen. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you have to have min 200 to get a "C". The point: It seems that most agree that flying above and behind while filming CRW was a bad choice. I think it is very safe to think that the camera and the desire to get the shot contributed to this accident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That was funny.... Don't play it at work "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Wow, that is a big cock!!!!! And a fairly sized chicken "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"For those that have the arrogance to ask "who are you" let them be some that stay home" "I'll stand by my statement. The ones that feel the need to ask can leave a space for someone happy to have a slot." If you say so..... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh look, more childish insults. That the best you got? I am not surprised, you started in this thread with insults and the best you have done so far is throw more of them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think you would be better served by being a loyal local and working with a DZ that you trust. I know it will be less expensive. I have a few friends that have gone there..... Mixed experiences, but they both said it was quite expensive. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good catch! Yes, the desire to get "good video" could have easily made him fly closer than he should have and his focus on getting the "right shot" could have distracted him from seeing and avoiding soon enough. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When I lived on the DZ in zhills it was 1:20 to the tunnel from zhills. My wife lived in DeLand when we met. It was about one hour away. Google maps has DeLand 49.7 miles 58 mins Zhills 64.9 miles 1:14 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Both. 1. It is a failure of the pilot when they get a canopy that requires more skill and experience than he/she can handle reliably, constantly. We have to remember that when we fly a HP wing that we must be "on" 100% of the time. It only takes one small error in judgement for us to get in over our heads. We must select a canopy that we can safely land 100% of the time and learn to fly that canopy to its maximum before we get another one. 2. It is ALL of our faults for letting this person jump that canopy. We have tried to lecture, teach, coerce, beg, arm twist and even yell at these people..... They don't listen. So it has LONG been past the time that we as an organization should have had a WL BSR that prevents those that only think they have the "mad skills" to handle the wing from getting in over their heads while at the same time having provisions for people that are actually that advanced to be able to advance at a rate that they can safely handle. I see the failure of the USPA to do anything about this as one of the largest failures of that organization. I am not saying I have *THE* answer.... .But it is clear that doing nothing is not actually helping and if done correctly the right solution will not hurt anything. The canopy portion of the ISP was well intended, but poorly executed. The "B" license checkoff is a decent start. How about: 1. Put five hop n pops in the program BEFORE the "A"? Instead we focused on freefall skills that are not life saving (Sit flying/center point turns). 2. Mandatory canopy classes for the "B". 3. A WL BSR with a stepped progression that can be tested out of with DEMONSTRATED competence. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334