Ron

So? OK they lie, big deal people lie all the time. Why would this suddenly be a big deal? It could ALSO make a few people think about using better Contraceptive devices and using them better. And thats a good thing all around. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Somethings I knew.... This I didn't: The Canadians crossed a minefield laid for tanks; the soldiers weren't heavy enough to detonate the bombs. At 11:30 that night, he was machine-gunned, taking six hits: one that took off his middle right finger (he managed to hide the missing finger on screen), four in his leg and one in the chest. Fortunately the chest bullet was stopped by his silver cigarette case. Wow. Blue skies "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good on him. thanks for sharing "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Free speech is not going anywhere. You can claim all day that it is but the facts say otherwise. You will bring up the "flag burning" BS. Well its not in the Constitution yet now is it? Hardley. Not a chance. Now you can and will claim that a "Moment of silence" is, but I think if you think that the Constitution and the First is gonna be ignored, think again. I DO wish that all of you that cry about the First gave a shit about the Second. Recent SC rullings have made it so the 10 comandments are not OK to display in a court...So I don't know where you are coming from. 1956 "In God We Trust" was added to the Pledge...That is not happening today now is it? If you are talking Roe, I find it funny that you wish to kill innocent babies, but defend criminals rights. Liberals want to kill babies but protect criminals. Conservatives want to protect babies and kill criminals. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Liberals want to run your life....They want to make you pay for others. How is that any different? Politicians ALL get up in the average mans cornflakes. The choice is who do you want trying to run your life and why? I'd rather not have liberals telling me how I can live my life, and making me pay for those who are to lazy to live their own life. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Slaughter of undesirables huh?......Kinda like abortion? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The got main plot parts all out of order...Sheesh. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

First guy out is base. He just exits and falls trying to stay in the same place with a good fall rate. The second guy out the door is the swooper, and he makes all the adjustments. After you two link up you can switch slots and have the other guy move away and then stay in place. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Pete Allum and DVG were on it last FSL in SDC. I don't know who was at the VPC meet. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Eloy 98 winds kept some from training before the meet and 10 way went on at least one weather hold. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Link exit, then have one guy move away. Fly to him and dock, then you move away. Repeat this drill some. After you get OK at the redocks....Add vertical to them. When you are good at them. Try unlinked exits. When starting out, have the first guy lay base...He does not try to come to you, you fly to him. It is VERY hard for two people to dock early on if BOTH are trying....You will end up lying past each other. Have one guy stay still to provide a better target. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Didn't I say that? The difference is...They do it, some on the other side just talk about it. AQ flew planes into buildings. So far the US has not bombed Mecca, and most likely would never. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then why Perris for two years? The USPA said to get exposure....But only once ever? My Favorite idea is to take over a neutral site...Like the WFFC does, or how it was done in OK. years ago. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There would be no benefit to even making the threat. If you make the threat you just bolster the rolls of the terrorists. If you actually do the deed you will have a rise in the rolls of the terrorists just like US citizens enlisted after 9/11. Maybe the dumbest idea ever "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Simple, you have only used emotion, and nothing of sustanance to support your position. The ONLY good argument has been US team selection...And we didn't even send a team in 2004. It has not worked yet...In fact less people IN the sport care about surfing than before. Whuffos interest is better gained by James Bond movies than any aspect of the sport...You said it yourself they can't sell skydiving gear to 14 year olds. Nonsense. 4 way womans had more competitors than skysurf anyway. ALSO the USPA does not hold an event to select the "womans" team...They do the regular event, so there is no extra anything. The USPA does not give womans 4way medals. your energy would be better spent not trying to get the USPA to support Nationals...You don't seem to get it...It HAS BEEN IN THE NATIONALS AND IT IS STILL DYING. Doing what has been done is not going to save it...."If you always do what you have always done you will always get whet you have always gotten". You need to do something else if you plan on saving skysurf, not beg to keep it at an event where only 4 teams bother to show. Try getting sponsorship to give the top skysurf team 10 grand....Then people will come, but unless you do something else just trying to keep it at the Nats does NOTHING. That didn't answer ANYTHING...WHY IS THE SPORT NOT POPULAR AND WHAT WILL YOU DO TO MAKE IT POPULAR. We have shown that keeping it at the Nationals does NOTHING. Well lets look at the top teams in 4way shall we? Hoover has been on the RW team for 11 years. Pete Allum has been competing since 1985 Dan Brodsky-Chenfield 1983 Joey Jones 1995 Shannon Pilcher 1992 Gary Smith 1987 Solly Williams 1987 ALL of these folks were at the Nationals this past year. How many skysurf folks have been doing it 10 years? If not, then why? You didn't answer...You said why its hard to rebuild, but you never answere WHY IT NEEDED TO BE REBUILT. If it was popular it would never have needed to be rebuilt. WHY IS IT NOT POPULAR? Which was a reply to your word for word to "And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. " So I just used your own words when you claimed something that was wrong. Well it IS an attack, but not like I care from you. But you think I am slamming Surfing? Nope, you just don't bring one non-emotional fact to back up your pleas. If skysurf dissapeared the USPA and whuffos would not care. The proof is that the sport is dying anyway while other disciplines are growing. You didn't answer the questions. You did attack people...I never said anything bad about skysurfers...find ONE quote where I said something bad about skysurfers...go ahead hero look. I said the sport is dying (which it is) and that your attempt to "save it" does NOTHING to save it. BTW I like several former skysurfers....They quit for a number of reasons...None of them was because the USPA was gonna kill it at Nationals...In fact the USPA IS gonna kill it since people don't care about it. You would be better served trying to get people to care....But lots of people before you have tried and not attacked people who disagreed....They could not do it, so your abrasive attitude sure aint gonna do it. You passion is good...But if all you plan on doing is begging for the USPA to keep it for mercy....you are lost. Good luck getting a medal...I mean that. I don't wish you ill will. I just think your push to save the sport is doomed if the best you can do is beg to keep it around. And your approach is not helping you any. Anyway you have two years.....I'd get to work or this is all wasted. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Shhhhh nobody knows. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And that is why I think its not popular. Someone on here touched on that before FF became popular it was the alternative to RW....Well now with FF being "cool", why risk a board. BTW I never have jumped a board, cause I frankly didn't think the risk was worth it. I think a ton of folks think the same way....Problem is I can't think of a way to make it safer. This keeps people from trying it. I think its probley harder than flat or freeflying..that does not help get people who do try it stay in it. Its not very social. There is one top 4way guy that is 43 and still doing 4way....There are guys that have been doing 4way/8way for 10+ years....Why does skysurf loose them and not RW? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

From Jan : The BOD did NOT eliminate skysurf. The BOD did pass a new Competition rule that applies to all disciplines. It says, in effect, that if a discipline has fewer than 4 teams/individuals for two consecutive years at Nationals then the discipline would be eliminated. The first year participation falls below 4 teams/individuals serves as a warning to recruit more participants for the following year. If a discpline is eliminated, then a team can qualify for a world meet in that discipline by attending any other nation's nationals. From Judy: Eloy got next years Nationals..Which I guess is the next two years. If its gonna be every two years...It REALLY should flop coasts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have not brought any facts. You tried to play on emotion: These were all nothing more than plays on emotion. OK 1. How will getting rid of the category hurt skydiving's exposure to whuffos? Whuffos don't even know there is such a thing as Nationals. The USPA isn't trying to prevent people from using skysurfing in TV ads and movies. 2. You don't have enough teams to compete, and you're not drawing a bunch of new teams. Why would you keep it on a venue? 3. How good can you really feel about placing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in a field of 4? 4. Why has skysurfing dwindled in popularity? you said "If skysurfing is to survive, it needs competitions to drive it." Its already at the Nationals, and its still dying...so how is just having it at the Nationals gonna save it when its not working now? 5. Explain to me how one competiton that last year had only 4 people not being around will destroy the USPA? 6. Why don't some of your "Worlds Best" why they don't compete anymore? Sure I can raddle off a list of skysurfers....but how many of them are actively training as a team and are promoting their discipline? 7. How many new teams do you know of? 8. Why is skysurf so unpopular with skydivers? You claim they all love it, but then why are so few doing it? True Style and ACC is not sexy...But last year they had: 27 people in Mens open...That alone is 19 more that ALL of Skysurf. 5 in Womens Open only 2 in Int ACC...So get rid of it. But together it was 34 people and thats 26 more than skysurf. In fact Acc *just last year* had more people than the last THREE YEARS of skysurf. So far the only good reason was given by Steve and ltdiver...to select the US team...But that has been the ONLY good reason given to support a Competition for a sport that has so few people. "I haven't said anything negative about you or your discipline, so take your hurt feelings someplace else" "My point was simple and clear, but a few overly sensitive people are trying to twist it into an attack on 4-way teams" "find another pot to stir" "If you don't think that's a valid point, feel free to debate THAT point, but knock off the childish "What have you done to deserve sponsorship?" crap." "And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines." "Maybe you had better step back and actually know what the debate is about before you speak." "Ron, this conversation is beginning to bore me, and you're beginning to annoy me." You have attacked anyone that brings up points you don't want to answer. You think I have a hard on against skysurf? Nope, I just don't see the point of keeping a competition alive that almost nobody cares about. I have asked several questions about why do you think it is important, and I never get answers or I get emotional pleas. Give me a reason, other than emotion and other than to select the US team, to keep skysurf as an event at the Nationals. I even tried to help...I asked you to find out why people are not doing it...Cause simple fact if you had 20 teams you would never be at risk of getting dropped from Nationals. Cause the simple fact is just keeping it at the Nationals is not working to save it. Its there now and it is still dying. You are trying to fix the symptom, not the disease. You need to find out WHY it is not popular to do, and try to make it popular....Then if 20 teams show up it will never be at risk of dying. You comment about beginer boards and freefliers is a good start....But I'd get them to try it before Nationals...I'm serious, its a good idea. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have no reason to be "worried" However it only takes one mistake to die. I had a good friend that could skydive circles around me bounce. He was really good in the air and had almost 1000 jumps...But he made a mistake and died. And RSL or an AAD would have saved him. But, pulling the reserve handle would also have saved him. I didn't have an RSL or AAD from jump #13 to 700ish. I still don't like RSL's (Other than the Skyhook...But its not like a regular RSL....Even then I have some doubts, but the benefit outweighs the risk IMO.) But my opinion is that people should have an RSL till they have their first mal and pulled both handles. Then they can make their own choices. But NO ONE should think an RSL is perfectly safe. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I find you attacking anyone that does not support you to be kinda petty. You NEVER answer questions and jump all over anyone that does not support you. You want a medal? Fine, but don't claim to be trying to save Skysurfing for the betterment of the sport. There are plenty of ways to save skysurfing that don't involve you getting a medal. And if you REALLY cared about the sport you would be trying to get people interested in it. Fact is that the Nationals is not going to save it since it IS at the Nationals and it is STILL dying. So if you really wanted to save it you would be looking at how to make it popular, not just trying to make it so you can medal. Saving Skysurf at Nationals is your quest to win a gold, not to save the sport. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You said: "I've only been in the sport a short while, but I have yet to ever hear of anyone specifically that had a pc in tow from an uncocked pilot chute" And I said I have heard of it, know a guy that almost got killed and several others that had mals. I then added link to a fatality that the USPA thought was started by not cocking the PC From the link and the USPA: "The first and foremost preventable factor was the initial pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction. Most often - and apparently the cause of this instance - the problem results from not fully seating or cocking the inner bridle on a kill-line collapsible pilot chute. " Did I SAY that? No, I did not. You said that you know of none, and I said I know of several. And I gave a link to one that killed that the USPA thinks was a result of a noncocked PC. Now to answer your question. No, I don't think its such a "death trap" that no one should have one. However people should know that if they are jumping a boat where the benefit of the device is little to nothing that they would be safer without having a High Performance device that can cause a problem when they don't need it. Way to often people buy a collapsable PC when they don't need one, and never even gave a second to think that they don't need it and it could cause problems. In cave diving we had a saying that unless you *needed* it, and if it *could* kill you then don't take it. I'd say that most PC in tows are the direct result of someone not cocking the PC. Right, but a smart person removes as many links as soon as they can. Again fromt he USPA:"From the link and the USPA: "The first and foremost preventable factor was the initial pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction. Most often - and apparently the cause of this instance - the problem results from not fully seating or cocking the inner bridle on a kill-line collapsible pilot chute. " A person bouncing can be due to an AAD not firing, but the first link is why they didn't pull, not the AAD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh, I see you open your mouth and say something wrong, and *I* should step back before making a comment? Funny. And your *point* about professional vs no-professional...So you are saying there are no professional skysurf teams? Ever wonder why? Very few people care and there is little to no benefit to having one. They DID exist, but they provided no benefit to the DZ. Some say that sponsoring an RW team has very little benefit, but those coaches bring people to the DZ to jump. By organizing (Which surfers can't really do), coaching (which is really hard to do when no one is trying to learn it), and holding events (Which if no one is doing the event its hard to hold an event). Skysurfing has VERY little benefit to a DZO. And if those people really cared...Then this would not be an issue. Skysurf would not be in a death spiral as an event. Lets see if those same people step up and strap on a board. How is strapping a piece of wood on your feet safer than not having that piece of wood? Thats simple logic there. Ask around....Why are the best not doing it anymore? Cause what you have is a difficult, dangerous aspect of the sport that is hard to get into and the "best" don't do it anymore either. Why? Answer that question and the reasons why skysurf is not popular are the same. I see you want to keep your aspect...I can only assume so you can win a medal...Whatever your reasons are I don't care. But you could Skysurf all day without it being at the Nationals. The aspect of the sport is dying. That is a simple fact. Your attacks on anyone that does not agree or support you are hurting you even more. Find out why it is dying and then maybe you can change it....Begging to keep it in the Nationals is going to do NOTHING to keep the sport alive as seen by the fact it has been in the Nationals and STILL is shrinking. You need to find out WHY it is dying, not just try and keep doing CPR, or keeping it around just so you can medal does nothing to save it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

for a while there, I thought you had a GREAT weekend. Then I found this out...sorry. No ones business: 4: 8: 9 Humps...no ones business 4 hours of flying in the tunnel on Friday. 8 team Jumps with Neal Houston coaching/filling in for our IC. 9 hours driving back to FL to be here for my GF's Bday. Ever try to find a flower shop in GA/N.Florida open on a Sunday? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe you had better step back and actually know what you are talking about before you speak? http://www.skyleague.com/pages/news/showArticles.php?story=150 Fact is very few people care enough about Skysurf to put a board on. A competition should not be held in an event no one cares about. The rule about an event going away if only 4 people show up in two years...Is good. However, I already know that people will show up in the second year just to keep it around and prolong its death. Skysurf is dying because its dangerous. People are not that interested in it. Like I said before, ask all the old greats why they don't do it anymore. And this right here is THE reason that skydiving will never be "popular" like NASCAR There is little to no market....Even less with Skysurf. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334