Ron

Then I guess you teach your FJ students how to pack since packing can lead to a malfunction? I hope then you teach your students about the strength of the harness and the use of a freebag. Your FJC must be about a week long. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The fact is you have a group of people that do tons of jumps a year, and they do that year after year and they don't have accidents nearly as often per jump as occasional fun jumpers. I am deeply surprised that you even think you can argue that Professionals are not better suited than amatures in a field. Gus wings accident had nothing to do with him. He was hit from behind by a plane. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Airspeed had 9 doing 1,000 a year. Thats 9,000 It would take 90 people doing 100 a year to equal that. Take the top 6 teams at nationals in 4 way and you have 30 jumpers doing lets say the avg is 500 (I think its higher, but lets be nice) 30 X 500 = 15000 jumps with no injuries most years. And thats just the top 6 teams. I know other teams that did 600 jumps and were not in the top 6. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is a great question. I don't feel the current program is very good. I also don't think the USPA does a very good job either. The ISP is better than before, but like you said, once you get a license its all up to you. The best answer is peer pressure. I have seen some very good programs (mostly at small family type DZ's, bt at some larger ones). Someone on here said a grood idea. Have programs throught the year covering different topics. Suggest that each jumper at least watch a reserve repack. Make each jumper pull his handles at each repack. I would not wait for the USPA to do anything, and some DZO's are going to do nothing. So the answer is to tell the new folks and the old the right things. If you hear someone say "Well I knoew I had an RSL so I waited for it to pull for me". Stop them and have the S&TA talk to them. Be carefull what we say. I have shown how some in this thread have said things that could lead peope to thinking a reserve pull after a cutaway with an RSL is not needed. Others have shown how people who review their procedures often, and who are current have less accidents that the occasional jumper. So encourage currency. I would be OK if the requirements were more strict. But then again I am the same guy that thinks an intentional cutaway is a good idea as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Welcome to "mainstream" skydiving. We spend so much time trying to make the sport popular that we do not think what that will bring. Someone posted I think on this thread that by the very fact people are reading this thread makes them more safety aware than the average jumper. And to be honest that is something I had not thought of that makes perfect sense to me. The fact they have taken type to read the Safety and Training section tells me that for the most part they are more safety aware than the occasional jumper. So here is the problem with this sport becoming popular. Now days there is a segment of this sport that comes out, goes through AFF and leaves at the end of the day. They then continue to jump making 50-100 jumps a year a a turbine DZ. All they do is show up make a few jumps and go home. THEY are the new skydiver. This is opposed to the old skydiver that would come out, spend all day and a good part of the night at the DZ. Then these jumpers would work on a rating and become a JM. This does not happen much anymore. Skydiving is a sport that you get out what you put in. And that includes your attitude on safety. I would venture that a good number of accidents at a DZ are the occasional jumper. This new brand of jumper does not live the sport and is quick to rely on toys over training. And they have no idea they are doing it since we have made skydiving so "safe". This is what we have asked for. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The difference is that she failed to save herself. Then her failure to understand a CYPRES made her fail to set it correctly. The CYPRES had very little to do with her death. SHE had everything to do with her death. The CYPRES worked as it was set. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Also notice that competitors that make 1,000 jumps a year die less than fun jumpers? Two things lead to safety, Currency and procedures. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Cutting away would have prevented that. Better yet he should not have been jumping in those winds. That is some of the most told and worst advice ever given. To disconnect the RSL after the canopy is open is to remove it when it works best...LOW. The best advice is to keep the RSL on and if you are being drug, cutaway anyway. The RSL will pull the pin, but it will not open the reserve. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well if you do, let me know. Of course, I expect to loose quite a few skydiving "friends" now that I don't live on the DZ anymore in Zhills. Of course people who visit now will get better acomidations. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

She is planning on moving. I have been in Dallas for a mth. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

She died because she didn't understand how to stop a skydive with a reserve. She was not SAVED by a CYPRES due to her misunderstanding how it works. That is a big difference. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think you misuderstood me...I said what you did was perfect and used the lady at the start of this thread to show dependance. I never said you were, in fact I said you did correctly. I don't know how you got that, but I am sorry that you misunderstood me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Dependant on the AAD or the RSL to replace proper procedures, or allow you to exceed comfort level. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Brick We checked, and we already have the "skydiving room" picked out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And that is perfect. That is what is needed. We can clearly see that not everyone feels the same way and that people do infact become dependant. They don't try to, but it is human nature. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well finally bought a house. Well it is being built and wil be ready in March/April. 3 bed, 2 bath, 1511 sqft, 2 car garage in Ft.Worth. Tile in entryways/bathrooms/kitchen. Fireplace (GF wanted the fireplace). Gonna be nice once its done. Case of beer will be paid to those that help move in....And I'll throw in pizza....You don't help, you get nothin. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you are by definition dependant on the AAD. There are more and more saves every year. Its better than deaths, but it shows the dependance quite well. did I say not to have it? Nope. I do say act like you don't have one. And if that measn you would not jump without it, then maybe you should not jump. Imagine telling Joey, Derick, and Jaleesa that you had died even with the best toys. Proper procudures remove the need for the toys. Toys do not remove the need for proper procedures, but it seems in many cases jumpers replace procedures with toys....This thread is a perfect example. It is very hard for you to claim that people do not become dependant on these devices in a thread about someone doing just that. Also you may say you are not dependant, but by refusing to jump without one you are in fact dependant, but I bet that if you had asked this saved person that they thought they were not dependant either. AAD and RSL are not bad pieces of equipment, the attitude they instill in some jumpers is. I still think that if you think that jumping without an AAD is too dangerous, then jumping with one should be also. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It seems to me that you didn't understand every piece of your equipment from your FJC. I know I didn't. would you have jumped if there was no AAD? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They are thought how to deal with a double out. There is no way to be "better prepared". A student who went low will not remember the AAD and switch from the Main to the reserve due to that. You yourself have said that you have seen an AFF I throw a main when he was low right after he told someone esle to dump the reserve. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Noya: none : 1 Who or how much I slept with is my business and theirs...Or just mine if its solo No jumps. 1 case owed for 1st house bought "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Coaching is good at any level at anytime. My team had coaching 3 times over the year. Airspeed has brought Joey out a few times. The GK's have used Airspeed. Coaching works well. It allows people to see different styles and ideas. 1. Find a coach that will give you a deal. This makes your money go farther. 2. START the season with a coach. You have a year together so you already have the basics worked out. Get the coach to try and get you all on the same plan. Get the coach to develop a grip plan for the team and a training plan based on your goals/commitment. 3. Spread the coaching out. If you have two camps a mth, have the coach once a mth to give you things to work on. The other weekend work on the drills and concepts the coach gave you. Then have the coach back to check on progress, see if you are on track and modify the plan. Having a coach on every jump is best, but it can lead to depending on him. The best coachs will not only tell you what to do, but also have you try and work on things yourself in the correct way. That way you grow in more than just raw skill, you begin to understand the process. 4. Have the coach around for competitions if possible. It helps keep friction down. A coach that everyone likes is good....A coach that everyone respects is better. All in all, you have a good plan. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Dr Joel, AZ. Also think about it this way....Would the NBA let Jorden play in Collage? Would the NCAA? Pros belong in the pro class. Do you think it is fair that you and I could not jump in Advanced with two new skydivers, but Garry and Irwin could? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is already covered under "Malfunctions"....Next! They don't need to know that a low pull might fire the AAD. They need to know the pull altitude for the dive and the hard deck. I think students get so much info crammed onto them in the FJC that they grab onto what they deam important. Just as a student does not need to know about a freebag, they don't need to know about an RSL or AAD. Rules require we tell them about them....But I can tell you that no matter how lightly you mention it they latch onto that little bit of info and own it. "Oh, so if I screw up, it will open?" Thats all they take from it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You think you understand an AAD at the end of a FJC? Did you know how a freebag works in your FJC? Did you even learn about a freebag in your FJC? It is an important part of your gear and I bet it was not mentioned to you. Did you learn to pack before your FJC? If you taught everthing needed in a FJC it would take days, and you would lose the attention of half your students. Students have an attention span. Covering too much information will make them concentrate on what THEY think is important. This will happen no matter how much you you tell them something else is important, they will pay attention to what they think is important. They will focus on the fact that it will save them if knocked out. They will ask, "How does it know I am knocked out?" Then you will have to tell them about how it fires at 750 feet at a certain speed. I can almost bet they will then say, "So, if I do nothing it will fire?" Tell me one thing that NOT telling a FJC student about an AAD will cause a problem. Im not saying never tell them, I am saying don't tell them in the FJC. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I did not even know they existed....I have a pro tach. Will that work? This and the little problem with the Blade are why I stayed away from helis for so long...I don't know how to fix the problems. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334