Spizzzarko

I am of the opinion that there is no need to be in free fall below 3.5.

Hi, This is addressed to all. I find it interesting that there is now discussion about swoopers yelling at some dude with a 135 because he flies a big pattern. That is interesting because the good swoopers fly a big rectangular pattern too. I start a down wind around 1800-1900' a base around 1300-1400, and a turn to final at 1100 or so. I think a lot of swoopers will agree with me that flying a pattern will give them MUCH better results than flying erraticly. I think there needs to be a deliniation in this argument on wheather it is the pattern or teh turn that is killing people.

If you think that will keep you safer then you are in for a very rude awakening dude. Good luck and don't look at any swoopers cross eyed or they will aim for you.

I'm sure he thought of it, but my guess is that the business aspect kept the option open for 180's.

a 180 is usually done from a lower altitude than a 270. There fore from a 180 degree turn you have less time to bail and seek alternate landing directions. It is just as dangerous as a 270 if you really want to get down to brass tacts here. As a swooper I have pretty much given up on Eloy so why not just help illustrate how their landing policy is still not going to help metters out.

Hey Steve is right on this issue. If you want it to be as black and white then SDA needs to ban everything over a 90. If you are going to do then do it all the way. A 180 is just as dangerous as a 270 if not more so.

"high yahoo factor" Is that a quatifiable statistic? What Eloy has done is basicly said no hop and pops because of the cost. I understand that. They have also said no turns over 180. I understand that too. If that works for them then good, and if you feel safer jumping there because of it then good for you too. Personally I want to focus on other things like doing hop and pops and turns bigger than 180. Therefore you probably will not see me at SDA and if you think that me doing a bigger turn on a hop and pop with no other traffic about is a problem, then you really need to re-examin your policy.

How does not allowing hop and pops make it safer for you?

"If by "we" you mean "people who do 270's in the pattern" then the absence of such people will be a big selling point for Eloy." Bill, When did I mention doing 270's in a pattern full of other jumpers? You are beginning to sound like a broken record. Quit responding just so you can get the last word in and fucking think about what other people are saying before you spout off at the keyboard.

It is a nice DZ, but they are making their choices for economic reasons and econicaly I choose not to frequent that DZ because of their non hop and pop stance. Good for them and good for me I guess.

Steve, Just give it up dude. These people are so wrapped up in this that they cant see clearly what the underlying cause is. Ian makes a very good, point. I'm tired of trying to argue any points with these people because they are either close minded or to ignorant to understand our point of view here. All in all I guess we will not be visiting Eloy any time soon.

Probably being killed by a swooper if you listen to some on here.

If you smell like almonds then your wound may be infected and gangreen may be setting in. I suggest amputation.

Check it!!! You can easily find out when your canopy will stall on rears. Up high do a front riser turn and then give input on your rears and watch your pilot chute. When the pilot chute goes straight up instead of straight back you are stalled. This simulates digging out of the corner on rears and will show you how fast the canopy can stall.

P.S. I only do them outside of traffic Remember all of us swoopers are now killers!

A lot of people use their rear risers to long in a swoop. If you are having to make a huge flare stroke when transitioning from rears to toggles then you have probably flown your rears to long. Rear riser landings are really effecient into the wind so you may want to use the rears just a hair longer into the wind. With a down wind or cross wind component you may want to think about transitioning to the toggles just a hair earlier so that you can hang in the air longer to get some of the push from the wind to aid your distance.

Not entirely correct... There are certain canopies that will plane out with little or no input after a speed inducing turn, but the newer designs will probably require some sort of input to plane out. Once it is planned out then you may or may not have to give much input to maintain your level over the ground. So do not think of it like you are saying: "Set the AoA and release rears gently and go to toggles in some seconds" It is not as black and white as you are saying. You need to continually fly the canopy by only providing the input necessary to maintain your level over the ground.

"And it needs to come from us, or else it will come from outsiders who have real legal clout." How many of the other deaths in our sport have caused intervention "from outsiders who have real legal clout"?

To the National Director, You say "I am curious about what canopy courses or canopy coaching or slice of sky that Bob Holler could have had or done that would have changed the outcome of Bob being attacked from behind and above?" So Danny is now an attacker? I have about had it with your combatative nature towards swoopers. I am quite sure no swooper here wants to do 270's in a busy traffic pattern as we have just as much to loose as anyone else. You Say "Correct me if I'm wrong, but no matter what courses or coaches Bob may have had would not have made the slightest difference in him being taken out by Danny doing a manuever that is unacceptable in a crowded pattern." So National Director are you telling me and all of YOUR othe constituants that you do not think education will help solve this problem? Again your emotional response is overiding your ability to think clearly about this issue and instituting policy on emotion is NEVER a wise thing to do. You say: "This is a global problem with local solutions" I say this is one of the smartest things I have heard you say to date and I agree with you whole heartedly. You also say: "I would say to you and others that wish to swoop in conventional patterns that you need to wake up and realize that the conventional pattern people do not like being targets for swoopers and do take it personally when they get taken out." I feel that any educated swooper will avoid swooping in the "Conventional Pattern". Those that do should and probably would get "Educated" by the swoop purists out there. So attacking Mark, Chachi, CanuckinUSA, and the other swoopers out there by proposing legislation to limit turns is not getting you any closer to solving this problem. We as swoopers need to step up and "Educate" all canopypilots as to the propper way to land safely. We can all coexist safely and not kill each other. I promise not to "Attack" other people in the pattern if you promise to work with those of us who perform high performance landings to help solve this issue. So now National Director the ball is in your court. We look forward to your response. Grant

This post is not aimed at AMAX, but more to everyone in this thread. Please go back and read the posts that I have made. No where have I said that doing a 270 in a pattern full of people is the right thing to do. Nor have I said anywhere that swoopers need to swoop the main landing area. In fact I stated the opposite. Do you not recall a statement that I have made more than once here "Swoopers are probably more affraid of what you are doing than hurting themselves" All I have maintained throughout this "Discussion" is that you do not need to make new rules and regulations for this epidemic. That is all.

Cool man I look forward to seeing you down here dude.

Bill, What about traffic patterns for swooping only such as that with a hop and pop or that over the swoop pond. That is the problem with the blanket coverage BSR. It doesn't take every situation into account.

Holy cow man you still jump? I figured you would still be in hibernation waiting for your overwhelming sex drive to wake you up and lead you out into the cold canadian winter! hahahahahaaaaa Yes I understand that you do turn away from the landing area with a 270, but if you are looking around in your turn then that time is brief. I do see yours and Bills point on it. I feel that this thread has had really good points on both sides of the argument and the only time I got really pissed was the "people like you" comment and you can tell by my response to that individual. The one thing that was irking me throughout the entire thread is the repettiveness of the comments such as "I don't swoop, but those people should land out" or I'm more affraid of swoopers that anything else on my dz" by in-experienced people. Sure swooping can be dangerous to multiple parties if done impropperly, but for the most part the experienced swoopers are going to be landing out anyways because they don't want your traffic in their way myself included.

I'm just callin it like I see it!

Hey tim! I miss being able to jump with those things. They get kind of bent out of shape here in Colorado about it. Grant